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      Video Reveals Violations of Laws, Abuse of Cows at Slaughterhouse

      By Rick Weiss
      Washington Post Staff Writer
      Wednesday, January 30, 2008; Page A04

      Video footage being released today shows workers at a California slaughterhouse delivering repeated electric shocks to cows too sick or weak to stand on their own; drivers using forklifts to roll the "downer" cows on the ground in efforts to get them to stand up for inspection; and even a veterinary version of waterboarding in which high-intensity water sprays are shot up animals' noses -- all violations of state and federal laws designed to prevent animal cruelty and to keep unhealthy animals, such as those with mad cow disease, out of the food supply.

      This Story
      Video Reveals Violations of Laws, Abuse of Cows at Slaughterhouse
      Moreover, the companies where these practices allegedly occurred are major suppliers of meat for the nation's school lunch programs, including in Maryland, according to a company official and federal documents.

      The footage was taken by an undercover investigator for an animal welfare group, who wore a customized video camera under his clothes while working at the facility last year. [ View the video on the Humane Society Web site ] It is evidence that anti-cruelty and food safety rules are inadequate, and that Agriculture Department inspection and enforcement need to be enhanced, said officials with the Humane Society of the United States, which coordinated the project.

      "These were not rogue employees secretly doing these things," the investigator said in a telephone interview on the condition of anonymity because he hopes to infiltrate other slaughterhouses. "This is the pen manager and his assistant doing this right in the open."

      The investigator and Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society, said the footage was taken at Hallmark Meat Packing in Chino, Calif. Hallmark sells meat for processing to Westland Meat Co. in Chino, according to Westland President Steve Mendell, who is also Hallmark's operations manager.

      Over the past five years, Westland has sold about 100 million pounds of frozen beef, valued at $146 million, to the Agriculture Department's commodities program, which supplies food for school lunches and programs for the needy, according to federal documents.

      In the 2004-05 school year, the Agriculture Department honored Westland with its Supplier of the Year award for the National School Lunch Program.

      In an interview, Mendell expressed disbelief that employees used stun guns to get sick or injured animals on their feet for inspection.

      "That's impossible," he said, adding that "electrical prods are not allowed on the property."

      Asked whether his employees use fork lifts to get moribund animals off the ground, he said: "I can't imagine that."

      Asked whether water was sprayed up animals' noses to get them to stand up, he said: "That's absolutely not true."

      "We have a massive humane treatment program here that we follow to the n{+t}{+h} degree, so this doesn't even sound possible," Mendell said. "I don't stand out there all day, but to me it would be next to impossible."

      California law and USDA regulations do not allow disabled animals to be dragged by chains, lifted with forklifts, or, with few exceptions, to enter the food supply, all of which happened at Hallmark during the investigator's time there last fall, he said.

      This Story
      Video Reveals Violations of Laws, Abuse of Cows at Slaughterhouse
      Video images show those activities, as well as a trailer with Hallmark's name on it.

      One reason that regulations call for keeping downers -- cows that cannot stand up -- out of the food supply is that they may harbor bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad cow disease. It is caused by a virus-like infectious particle that can cause a fatal brain disease in people.

      Another is because such animals have, in many cases, been wallowing in feces, posing added risks of E. coli and salmonella contamination.

      The Humane Society and other groups have for years urged Congress to pass legislation that would tighten oversight at slaughterhouses.

      Kenneth Petersen, assistant administrator of the Food Safety and Inspection Service's Office of Field Operations, whose 7,600 inspectors monitor the nation's 6,200 slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants for the Agriculture Department, said he had not seen the video. He added that he would have preferred that the Humane Society contacted the agency directly.

      But he said use of a Hot Shot -- a brand-name electric device used to get dawdling cows to move along -- is "not allowed" as a means of getting a downer on its feet.

      In the video, handlers repeatedly apply powerful shocks to the heads, necks, spines and rectums of immobile cows.

      "That's certainly not a way to have them stand up or a correct way to move them," Petersen said.

      Raising a cow on the prongs of a forklift is also not allowed, he said.

      "We've made it clear that mechanical means to try to elevate an animal is not considered humane," Petersen said.

      If he had evidence that the practices in the video were going on at a slaughterhouse, "I would immediately suspend them as an establishment," he said. "You're done. You're suspended. Everything stops. That's what we call an egregiously inhumane handling violation."

      Temple Grandin, a professor of animal science at Colorado State University and an expert in slaughter practices, called the Humane Society footage "one of the worst animal-abuse videos I have ever viewed."

      The investigator said a USDA inspector appeared twice a day, at 6:30 a.m. and about 12:30 p.m., to look at each cow to be slaughtered that day. The practices occurred before the inspector's appearance, he said, with the goal of getting the animals on their feet for the short time the inspector was there.

      "Every day, I would see downed cattle too sick or injured to stand or walk arriving at the slaughterhouse," he said. "Workers would do anything to get the cows to stand on their feet."

      USDA regulations say that if an animal goes down after it is inspected but before it is slaughtered, then it must be reinspected. But that rarely, if ever, happened, according to the Humane Society.

      "They wanted to do whatever they could to get them into the kill box, including jabbing them in the eye, slamming into them with a forklift and simulating drowning or waterboarding the animals," Pacelle said -- all practices that can be seen in the video.

      Mad cow disease is extremely rare in the United States, but of the 15 cases documented in North America -- most of them in Canada -- the vast majority have been traced to downer cattle. When the United States had its first case a few years ago, 44 nations closed their borders to U.S. beef, Pacelle said, costing the nation billions of dollars.

      To sneak downers past inspectors, Pacelle said, is "penny-wise and pound-foolish."

      California law and USDA regulations do not allow disabled animals to be dragged by chains, lifted with forklifts, or, with few exceptions, to enter the food supply, all of which happened at Hallmark during the investigator's time there last fall, he said.

      This Story
      Video Reveals Violations of Laws, Abuse of Cows at Slaughterhouse
      Video images show those activities, as well as a trailer with Hallmark's name on it.

      One reason that regulations call for keeping downers -- cows that cannot stand up -- out of the food supply is that they may harbor bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad cow disease. It is caused by a virus-like infectious particle that can cause a fatal brain disease in people.

      Another is because such animals have, in many cases, been wallowing in feces, posing added risks of E. coli and salmonella contamination.

      The Humane Society and other groups have for years urged Congress to pass legislation that would tighten oversight at slaughterhouses.

      Kenneth Petersen, assistant administrator of the Food Safety and Inspection Service's Office of Field Operations, whose 7,600 inspectors monitor the nation's 6,200 slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants for the Agriculture Department, said he had not seen the video. He added that he would have preferred that the Humane Society contacted the agency directly.

      But he said use of a Hot Shot -- a brand-name electric device used to get dawdling cows to move along -- is "not allowed" as a means of getting a downer on its feet.

      In the video, handlers repeatedly apply powerful shocks to the heads, necks, spines and rectums of immobile cows.

      "That's certainly not a way to have them stand up or a correct way to move them," Petersen said.

      Raising a cow on the prongs of a forklift is also not allowed, he said.

      "We've made it clear that mechanical means to try to elevate an animal is not considered humane," Petersen said.

      If he had evidence that the practices in the video were going on at a slaughterhouse, "I would immediately suspend them as an establishment," he said. "You're done. You're suspended. Everything stops. That's what we call an egregiously inhumane handling violation."

      Temple Grandin, a professor of animal science at Colorado State University and an expert in slaughter practices, called the Humane Society footage "one of the worst animal-abuse videos I have ever viewed."

      The investigator said a USDA inspector appeared twice a day, at 6:30 a.m. and about 12:30 p.m., to look at each cow to be slaughtered that day. The practices occurred before the inspector's appearance, he said, with the goal of getting the animals on their feet for the short time the inspector was there.

      "Every day, I would see downed cattle too sick or injured to stand or walk arriving at the slaughterhouse," he said. "Workers would do anything to get the cows to stand on their feet."

      USDA regulations say that if an animal goes down after it is inspected but before it is slaughtered, then it must be reinspected. But that rarely, if ever, happened, according to the Humane Society.

      "They wanted to do whatever they could to get them into the kill box, including jabbing them in the eye, slamming into them with a forklift and simulating drowning or waterboarding the animals," Pacelle said -- all practices that can be seen in the video.

      Mad cow disease is extremely rare in the United States, but of the 15 cases documented in North America -- most of them in Canada -- the vast majority have been traced to downer cattle. When the United States had its first case a few years ago, 44 nations closed their borders to U.S. beef, Pacelle said, costing the nation billions of dollars.

      To sneak downers past inspectors, Pacelle said, is "penny-wise and pound-foolish."

      California law and USDA regulations do not allow disabled animals to be dragged by chains, lifted with forklifts, or, with few exceptions, to enter the food supply, all of which happened at Hallmark during the investigator's time there last fall, he said.

      This Story
      Video Reveals Violations of Laws, Abuse of Cows at Slaughterhouse
      Video images show those activities, as well as a trailer with Hallmark's name on it.

      One reason that regulations call for keeping downers -- cows that cannot stand up -- out of the food supply is that they may harbor bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad cow disease. It is caused by a virus-like infectious particle that can cause a fatal brain disease in people.

      Another is because such animals have, in many cases, been wallowing in feces, posing added risks of E. coli and salmonella contamination.

      The Humane Society and other groups have for years urged Congress to pass legislation that would tighten oversight at slaughterhouses.

      Kenneth Petersen, assistant administrator of the Food Safety and Inspection Service's Office of Field Operations, whose 7,600 inspectors monitor the nation's 6,200 slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants for the Agriculture Department, said he had not seen the video. He added that he would have preferred that the Humane Society contacted the agency directly.

      But he said use of a Hot Shot -- a brand-name electric device used to get dawdling cows to move along -- is "not allowed" as a means of getting a downer on its feet.

      In the video, handlers repeatedly apply powerful shocks to the heads, necks, spines and rectums of immobile cows.

      "That's certainly not a way to have them stand up or a correct way to move them," Petersen said.

      Raising a cow on the prongs of a forklift is also not allowed, he said.

      "We've made it clear that mechanical means to try to elevate an animal is not considered humane," Petersen said.

      If he had evidence that the practices in the video were going on at a slaughterhouse, "I would immediately suspend them as an establishment," he said. "You're done. You're suspended. Everything stops. That's what we call an egregiously inhumane handling violation."

      Temple Grandin, a professor of animal science at Colorado State University and an expert in slaughter practices, called the Humane Society footage "one of the worst animal-abuse videos I have ever viewed."

      The investigator said a USDA inspector appeared twice a day, at 6:30 a.m. and about 12:30 p.m., to look at each cow to be slaughtered that day. The practices occurred before the inspector's appearance, he said, with the goal of getting the animals on their feet for the short time the inspector was there.

      "Every day, I would see downed cattle too sick or injured to stand or walk arriving at the slaughterhouse," he said. "Workers would do anything to get the cows to stand on their feet."

      USDA regulations say that if an animal goes down after it is inspected but before it is slaughtered, then it must be reinspected. But that rarely, if ever, happened, according to the Humane Society.

      "They wanted to do whatever they could to get them into the kill box, including jabbing them in the eye, slamming into them with a forklift and simulating drowning or waterboarding the animals," Pacelle said -- all practices that can be seen in the video.

      Mad cow disease is extremely rare in the United States, but of the 15 cases documented in North America -- most of them in Canada -- the vast majority have been traced to downer cattle. When the United States had its first case a few years ago, 44 nations closed their borders to U.S. beef, Pacelle said, costing the nation billions of dollars.

      To sneak downers past inspectors, Pacelle said, is "penny-wise and pound-foolish."

        another cruel treatment of cows is for dairy farming.
        the farmer shoots male calves so they dont drink the mothers milk, thats meant for humans. or the calves are sent of to be veal, going on a long uncomfortable overseas journey first ,then they are kept in dark sheds and fed a liquid diet and possibly chained up too til they are slaughtered at 6 months (not having seen daylight, breathed fresh air or eaten grass as cows should do.)
        this is the reason i do not drink milk anymore, i am also cutting out as many dairy by-products as i can, i dont buy chocolate or cheese now and have cut my butter intake to a minimum.
        im almost vegan now !

          ive just got an email from hsus with a link to a petition about the issue you have raised Phillip.

          you can find the link here at www.hsus.org click on Act.

            That's awful!

            I do feel guilty for eating meat and drinking milk!

            But, what can I do? I am addicted!

            I have tried and tried to give up meat! But, I always end up going back to it! It's like a demon or something! I crave it!

              i think we can all give something up if we want to enough.

              i gave up smoking over 10 yrs ago cos its bad for you.

              well so is meat and milk, so just tell yourself that and look on it as being a health move in the right direction.

              just think of all that fat you would be ditching

                What about the Organic Milk?
                My mom buys some that has a little paragraph on the carton about how they do not harm their cows and that they are allowed to graze normally. They dont fill them full of pesticides/steroids either.

                  RADIANCE:What about the Organic Milk?
                  My mom buys some that has a little paragraph on the carton about how they do not harm their cows and that they are allowed to graze normally. They dont fill them full of pesticides/steroids either.

                  Even if the milk is organic and they don't harm the cows they milk, there is a possibility that the male calves which are not used in milk production have been used in the veal or general meat trade. The only way you'd know is to contact the producers of your organic milk and ask them to confim what happens to the males.

                    Used to bleed copiously and would feel dizzy and faint, I had to eat meat I thought, though possibly could just have used iron pills. I felt better after consuming some meat though. Just pointing out this issue is more complicated than you think, for women, some women, especially.

                      Please don't blame people who eat meat for this. Blame those who abuse and tourture animals. I eat meat myself, does that make me a bad person?Besides, we were natrually born omnivores. No offence, but I just am trying to make a point, okay.

                        If you are a woman or man and want to go vegetarian/vegan whatever and you don't feel well...I take my vitamins religously and have a B-12 shot every 3 weeks.
                        Also do not forget your iron supplements esp. if you are a woman. Everytime I see meat now, I think of this horrible video footage I accidentally saw of a bobcat or some type of machinery pushing a downer cow to slaughter, and this poor pig that could not stand, only on his front legs and he was sitting in feces. Pitiful!
                        I almost cry just thinking of it. The people who hurt animals in these places deserve the same treatment imo. Sorry, but I get very emotional over this.

                          MJBeatle:Please don't blame people who eat meat for this. Blame those who abuse and torture animals.

                          those funding it, perpetuate it and so are equally 'to blame' for it.
                          you (all who buy and eat such) purchase and consume it, so you pay for the continued abuse and murder of these innocent animals.
                          supply and demand.

                          MJBeatle:I eat meat myself, does that make me a bad person?

                          funding evil is something that one can stop doing.
                          abusing and killing animals is evil.
                          funding it incriminates one who pays for this to be done.
                          but one can stop being part of this right now.

                          MJBeatle:
                          Besides, we were naturally born omnivores. No offence, but I just am trying to make a point, okay.

                          no, we are not naturally-born 'omnivores'.
                          that's a myth.

                            What about the native Americans? they hunted, killed and ate animals. And they still do because it's part of there heritage and culture. And Jesus ate meat. I don't want to fight with you, I just don't understand why you have to blame people like me for such hatered to animals. I love all animals, but I choose to eat what I've had all my life.


                              before, i reply to what you said, arguing with me is like arguing with Sir Paul himself because he would say and has said all that is being said to you on this issue.
                              so are you actually checking what you're saying versus what our beloved Sir Paul has said and shown us on these issues already?
                              that's quite shameful, especially being on his site and forum..

                              i'd think that fans of his would not be still making these kinds of excuses to eat animals still..

                              MJBeatle:What about the native Americans? they hunted, killed and ate animals. And they still do because it's part of their heritage and culture.

                              are you 'native American'?
                              what's your point?
                              so? people murdered each other, raped each other, had wars for thousands of years also. does that mean it should continue Knowing better ways than those ways?

                              why key in on a selected portion of society to which you have nothing to do with to find an excuse to continue something that is obviously wrong and unbeneficial to everyone involved (yourself and the animals and the planet)?

                              weird.

                              MJBeatle:
                              And Jesus ate meat.

                              oh really?
                              1. were you there?

                              2. lots of mistranslations over the centuries due to political nonsense

                              3. if he did, so what? do YOU practice ALL that 'Jesus' supposedly did or did not do? i highly DOUBT it.
                              do Everything else 'Jesus' supposedly did then if you want to conveniently be selective in what to imbibe/imitate of a historical figure.
                              and why key in on Jesus?
                              Jesus preached so many other things which also would contradict killing animals.
                              why not imbibe and practice ALL else that he supposedly preached/did?
                              Jesus also supposedly walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, performed all sorts of miracles, and also was crucified and 'rose again', etc., etc.

                              he also preached and embodied a lot of peace, something which killing animals in no way lines up with.

                              MJBeatle:
                              I don't want to fight with you,

                              once there is an attempt at justifying murder of innocent animals, the 'fight' is on. they do not have the power/voice to fight on their own behalf, so those of us who are aware and who care (including our beloved Sir Paul) are the ones who must defend them from those who wish to keep causing them harm.

                              MJBeatle:
                              I just don't understand why you have to blame people like me for such hatred to animals.

                              i explained in detail already.
                              $$$ makes the murder continue.
                              keep funding the murder and it will continue.
                              purchasing and consuming this murder keeps the murder funded and stable to continue happening.
                              so people who pay for this murder to happen (all who eat animals' flesh) ARE to blame for it happening and continuing.
                              SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
                              basic law of business.

                              paying for the animals to be murdered incriminates one in all of this.

                              MJBeatle:
                              I love all animals, but I choose to eat what I've had all my life.

                              you don't love all animals.
                              if you did, you would not be paying for and eating of their needless, merciless slaughter..

                              if one loves 'all animals' as you state, then one would not be eating their flesh. the thought of it would make one sick and one would give up such habits.

                              'what I've had all my life'
                              many things that one has done 'all one's life' are not right and are given up at various stages during one's life.
                              so being now informed and conscious due to all that Sir Paul has shown us and all that is being presented to you here, now, it behooves you to stop being part of the merciless murder of innocent animals.

                              stop eating them now.
                              then you'll be actually talking the truth when you say you 'love all animals'.
                              otherwise, you're being dishonest (to put it lightly)..

                              listen to what the man says, our Sir Paul on this very issue - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTifP6idBPs

                                excuse me? But your overreacting here. I respect the fact that your a vegan, so please respect the fact that I eat meat. I don't even know why your on here, because you have so much hatred towards others. Just think would Sir Paul himself, hate his fans because they eat meat? I don't think so. Paul is a good man with a kind and steady heart. He loves all his fans. He doesn't shove vegatarianism down other peoples throats. I don't think your even a fan, you just like to troll. By the way, I am a fan who's been pushed around and called names because I'm autistic. I know someday you'll feel regretful for your hate.

                                  MJBeatle:excuse me? But you're overreacting here.


                                  no i'm not
                                  i've accurately responded to all you stated with the facts.
                                  are you telling Sir Paul that he is overreacting also?
                                  he states the same message against murdering animals, so what are you arguing about?

                                  MJBeatle:
                                  I respect the fact that you're a vegan, so please respect the fact that I eat meat.


                                  you came on a thread on COSMICALLY CONSCIOUS which deals with these issues, to state about eating animals and so you should expect being told what Sir Paul has been telling us all for such a long time - stop eating the animals.
                                  no, there is no respect for Murder.
                                  murder of animals is not something deserving of respect.
                                  respect the animals' lives. that is what has to be done.

                                  MJBeatle:
                                  I don't even know why you're on here,

                                  likewise

                                  but why i am on here - because i love Sir Paul's music and message and have imbibed such in my life.

                                  and in this section of the forum is for these issues, so if you post such words about eating animals on such a thread as this on this section of the forum, then be prepared to hear the facts on the matter against murdering the animals.
                                  there is no overreaction nor questionability of my presence here.
                                  it is all quite valid what i am and what i do and state.

                                  MJBeatle:
                                  because you have so much hatred towards others.

                                  no

                                  i despise the murder of innocent animals
                                  and i am speaking out on their behalf

                                  the 'hatred' here is that innocent animals are abused and killed every second and then consumed, while all the good reasons to stop doing so is stated, including from Sir Paul himself.
                                  THAT is hatred. hatred for animals.

                                  MJBeatle:
                                  He doesn't shove vegatarianism down other peoples throats.

                                  and he speaks out just as well and as strongly against cutting animals' throats.

                                  MJBeatle:
                                  I don't think you're even a fan, you just like to troll.

                                  hahaha
                                  do some research before you make such statements.
                                  i won't go into more detail to dignify such a comment with a detailed response.

                                  MJBeatle:
                                  I know someday you'll feel regretful for your hate.

                                  the only hate i see here is hatred for animals by trying to justify continuing to kill and eat them.
                                  i have nothing to regret.
                                  you however i hope will regret being presented with all of this fact, even from Sir Paul himself, and STILL ignoring the plight of the animals while calling my defense of the animals 'hatred'.

                                  totally weird.

                                  all i've done is speak out the facts and defended the animals.
                                  what hatred?
                                  i am defending peace and love towards animals.

                                  if you can't take that then you're posting in the wrong section of the forum.

                                  you seem to hate the facts, that is what.

                                    All I'm trying to do is bring peace between meat eaters and vegans . Please don't judge me just because I eat meat, I'd rather be friends with you than go through this fight.

                                      MJBeatle:All I'm trying to do is bring peace between meat eaters and vegans .

                                      no that is not what you were doing.
                                      excuse me, but you came on this thread and posted some erroneous comments regarding animals' lives, so i addressed those comments factually.
                                      you then proceeded to 'ask' certain things which i also addressed clearly, to which you accused me of 'hatred', 'troll', etc.

                                      this section of the site is for such discussions, so how am i a 'troll' if i am posting on such a thread to defend the animals?
                                      weird :

                                      you paid no attention to the facts and kept avoiding the real issues at hand which i was responding to.

                                      you speak of peace, but
                                      how can there be Peace if all 'meat-eaters' are concerned with is continuing to pay for cutting animals into Pieces?

                                      you have been presented with the facts by the posts on page 1 AND by Sir Paul's own video.

                                      your " " would be best used in response to the sad plight of the animals who are abused and murdered every minute for 'meat-eaters' to purchase and fill themselves with.

                                      shed tears over that instead..

                                      and stop being part of that sadness.
                                      stop funding and consuming it.

                                      i see that you claim to have a crush on paul since age 8 (on your DeviantArt link)

                                      so then follow him
                                      don't eat animals
                                      easy

                                      it's the best way to show regard for and to give honour to what our beloved Sir Paul stands for..

                                      MJBeatle:
                                      Please don't judge me just because I eat meat, I'd rather be friends with you than go through this fight.

                                      the animals are our friends, at least the friends of those who care for them and who do not pay for them to be killed.
                                      you use the word 'judge' but you came on this thread and posted things that required response which you received.
                                      i stood up for the animals and i answered what you posted at each step.
                                      this is not about 'judging' but about speaking the facts and speaking out on behalf of those who are mercilessly abused and killed, the innocent animals.

                                      THEY are the ones being judged by humans who think they are nothing but flesh on legs to be reared, harvested, cut and eaten.

                                      speaking out in their defence is not 'judging'. it is defending them and their right to live free from harm and malice.

                                        MJBeatle:...Just think would Sir Paul himself, hate his fans because they eat meat? I don't think so. Paul is a good man with a kind and steady heart. He loves all his fans. He doesn't shove vegatarianism down other peoples throats...

                                        I think you're right.

                                        First, Paul probably understands that most meat-eaters do so, simply, because their parents did.

                                        It is very difficult to unlearn a lifestyle habit that you've done all your life.

                                        But it can be done.

                                        Also, I'm a big fan of the BRAVO t.v. series, Top Chef. The Foo Fighters were guest celebrity judges on an episode a couple of years ago.

                                        As many of us know, Dave Grohl and Paul are tremendous admirers of each other.

                                        Anyway, one of the key ingredients that the band-members insisted be included on the menu for the challenge was bacon. They emphasized how much they love it.

                                        I'd bet that Paul has since shared his views with Grohl since they've spent so much time together. Regardless, Paul, most likely, accepts that people are going to do what they will do.

                                          audi:

                                          First, Paul probably understands that most meat-eaters do so, simply, because their parents did.

                                          It is very difficult to unlearn a lifestyle habit that you've done all your life.

                                          But it can be done.

                                          Regardless, Paul, most likely, accepts that people are going to do what they will do.


                                          sure audi, that may be true, and all of that regarding Sir Paul,
                                          but THAT was not the issue being debated here.
                                          this issue is not about Sir Paul himself but about the ANIMALS.

                                          there have been certain statements made on this thread by mjbeatle about ANIMALS
                                          which were the statements being dealt with in my responses.

                                          Sir Paul came up as a major Reference on this campaign to stop animals being murdered and eaten,
                                          but the topic here remains about those heinous activities and not about
                                          tangential statements made by mjbeatle in response to the facts that i stated
                                          to defend animals.

                                          just because Sir Paul may 'accept' that people will still do what they want doesn't mean that he tries any less to bring about changes via all he does on this issue.

                                          yes, we all can accept/know that 'you can bring a horse to the water but you can't make him drink.' but that is not the issue on this thread or in my responses to mjbeatle.

                                          and sure, we know that most people are born into 'meat-eating' families, just as myself and most of the people who stopped doing this wrong thing.

                                          but that didn't stop us from changing.
                                          killing animals is wrong and is not in line with statements like 'i love all animals' etc. which mjbeatle was posting.

                                          my responses to mjbeatle were/are on the issue itself of the animals' right to live without being abused/murdered/sold to be eaten, and in response to whatever she was posting which required argument to be set straight.

                                          so let's not get so easily sidetracked.

                                          thank you.

                                            What's your veggie-conversion success rate?

                                            Can't be that high, given your in-your-face, dogmatic, borderline abusive, communication style.

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