Paul McCartney's complex rhythm/drum patterns
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Yeah, he was open to anything they suggested. Imagine if they had to work with a cranky producer. How would the Beatles story evolved then...
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Those criticizing Ringo's drumming should listen to "Postcards from Paradise." Lots of classic Ringo drumming on that album, and as usual he gives each song precisely what it needs.
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I'm not even going to pretend I know the difference between good drumming and poor drumming. I have no idea.... I know a good song from a bad song, and will always look at whether it can be played as a simple three-chord song, and whether it stands that test melody-wise, but I will have to defer to you guys/gals about drumming. No idea from me.
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John DID say that "Ringo's not even the best drummer in The Beatles" comment. He imght well have been joking though. About the drumming in Band on the Run, didn't the drummer who had quite before they went to Africa (Denny Seiwell?) say they used his drumming "lines" or something?.
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crisstti:
John DID say that "Ringo's not even the best drummer in The Beatles" comment. He imght well have been joking though. About the drumming in Band on the Run, didn't the drummer who had quite before they went to Africa (Denny Seiwell?) say they used his drumming "lines" or something?.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/02/entertainment/la-et-ms-beatles-ringo-starr-biography-tune-in-mark-lewisohn-20131202 "While it sounds like the kind of acerbic comment that might have come out of Lennon?s mouth, Lewisohn says no." "For me, it?s [a case of tracking down] when did he say this? I?ve heard every John Lennon interview, I?ve read every John Lennon interview, I never saw that quote. So when did he say it, let alone when did he famously say it?? he said. ?I determined to get to the bottom of it. And it?s actually a TV comedian?s joke from three years after John was killed, in 1983. So John Lennon never said it -- and wouldn?t have said it."
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John said the Beatles would never had made it without Ringo. He was right.
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Well, that is surely interesting. I'd never even heard it being disputed that it was a John quote. I still have my doubts though, seems hard to believe it would have somehow gone unnoticed that it was a joke in a TV show all this time!. Odd. I have to consider Lewisohn's comment that he wouldn't have sait it though as a bit fanboysh (sorry). It isn't like he didn't say much worse!. I never even considered this actually bad as I always took it as a joke.
RMartinez:
John said the Beatles would never had made it without Ringo. He was right.
Have to disagree. I think The Beatles only wouldn't have made it without Paul or John. Actually, even then they would have made it, but they would have been a different band.
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crisstti:
Well, that is surely interesting. I'd never even heard it being disputed that it was a John quote. I still have my doubts though, seems hard to believe it would have somehow gone unnoticed that it was a joke in a TV show all this time!. Odd. I have to consider Lewisohn's comment that he wouldn't have sait it though as a bit fanboysh (sorry). It isn't like he didn't say much worse!. I never even considered this actually bad as I always took it as a joke.
RMartinez:
John said the Beatles would never had made it without Ringo. He was right.
Have to disagree. I think The Beatles only wouldn't have made it without Paul or John. Actually, even then they would have made it, but they would have been a different band.
That is your opinion and can never be proven. The Beatles were a collective phenomenon. Your thesis says even Paul would have been famous as a solo artist, or John would have been. But that can never be proven. If the Beatles never made it, Paul may have become a teacher, and played music for fun. John may have become an artist or factory worker. The Beatles didn't pick up a hack drummer to start their rise to fame, they got the best rock drummer in England, Ringo, because they KNEW they sounded amazing with him on drums, never mind his charismatic personality. George Harrison had a chemistry with John and Paul that took years to cultivate. People who say a band could have made by just putting another drummer in there or another guitarist don't really know much about how things work. If you are right, then why didn't they just keep Pete Best on drums? Because if they had, we would NEVER have heard of a band called The Beatles.
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I think both John and Paul could have made it as songwriters/solo artists already early on if The Beatles hadn't happened. It took a while longer for the George to come up with the genius songs. Or they could have written all these great songs for others to sing, Lennon/McCartney had many giveway hits and it wasn't even their best ones. But The Beatles as a band... The combination of those four is so unique... The record companies have tried put together "beatles bands" since 1963/64, and they can't! John. Paul, George, Ringo... The greatest ever. It's just the way it is.
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People like drummers who are loud and fast. Ringo played what was best for the song, not what was best for his image. He could have been more flamboyant, but who would you rather hear on A Day in the Life, Ringo or John Bonham? Ringo's time signature changes on Good Morning Good Morning and Happiness is a Warm Gun sound effortless. Ringo could play all the different styles The Beatles explored. To replace him with other famous drummers, I don't think you'd find one who could do it all. You'd need different drummers for different songs. Any drummer needs to have a good sense of rhythm, but Ringo is a human metronome. I once read that if you set a metronome to 126 bpm, Ringo's The End solo will stay perfectly in synch. And it does. That might not sound like such a big deal, especially since it's a pretty short solo, but most drummers never stay in perfect synchronization with a metronome. There's always at least some variation. Play a metronome along with Phil Collins' The End solo and you'll hear that they go out of synch in the middle. Listen to just the drum parts on Rain, Ticket to Ride, Let It Be, Tomorrow Never Knows, I Am the Walrus, or a million other songs and you'll know exactly what song it is. Some, like Come Together and Something, you recognize instantly. Listen to just the drum parts on Stairway to Heaven, Won't Get Fooled Again, Synchronicity II, Tom Sawyer, Sunshine of Your Love, Whole Lotta Love, Smells Like Teen Spirit. All good drum parts that work in the song, but they could be a million different songs on their own. The Who's Who Are You sounds like Shaft.
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RMartinez:
crisstti:
Well, that is surely interesting. I'd never even heard it being disputed that it was a John quote. I still have my doubts though, seems hard to believe it would have somehow gone unnoticed that it was a joke in a TV show all this time!. Odd. I have to consider Lewisohn's comment that he wouldn't have sait it though as a bit fanboysh (sorry). It isn't like he didn't say much worse!. I never even considered this actually bad as I always took it as a joke.
RMartinez:
John said the Beatles would never had made it without Ringo. He was right.
Have to disagree. I think The Beatles only wouldn't have made it without Paul or John. Actually, even then they would have made it, but they would have been a different band.
That is your opinion and can never be proven. The Beatles were a collective phenomenon. Your thesis says even Paul would have been famous as a solo artist, or John would have been. But that can never be proven. If the Beatles never made it, Paul may have become a teacher, and played music for fun. John may have become an artist or factory worker. The Beatles didn't pick up a hack drummer to start their rise to fame, they got the best rock drummer in England, Ringo, because they KNEW they sounded amazing with him on drums, never mind his charismatic personality. George Harrison had a chemistry with John and Paul that took years to cultivate. People who say a band could have made by just putting another drummer in there or another guitarist don't really know much about how things work. If you are right, then why didn't they just keep Pete Best on drums? Because if they had, we would NEVER have heard of a band called The Beatles.
Yes, Ringo was essential. Brain Epstein knew it, and John and Paul (reportedly) made a special trip to the holiday camp where Rory and the Hurricanes were playing just to ask him in person to join the group. Ringo was already a star(r) on the Liverpool scene and, as Hailey says above, Ringo brought a special expertise that suited them perfectly. He also had a unique and relatable personality that fit in perfectly with the others, with a similar sense of humor that made them work as a UNIT, not just three guys and a drummer. The fact that he was just as charismatic as the others added greatly to their appeal and their mystique. The movie "A Hard Day's Night" with Pete Best would have been, sorry to say, several shades duller. And just to say that John COULD have made that acerbic drummer comment in no way means that he did. John also COULD have purposely hidden LSD in the title of "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds," but the evidence just doesn't support it. Hendrix Ibsen: I don't know if Paul is exactly ready to make his "Trout Mask Replica," but I'll bet he knows that album!
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Any other examples of Paul McCartney's more complex time-signatures?
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The time signatures on the horn section of Band On the Run leading into the acoustic guitar, then the acoustic guitar into the vocal "Well, the rain exploded..." are unorthodox to me. The intro to Martha My Dear has a strange pattern, not your typical 1/2 or 1/4.
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A friend was just saying to me the other day that "Martha My Dear's" intro is a bit tricky.
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The "Tug Of War" album has a lot of shifting time signatures and tempos, most notably on "The Pound Is Sinking" (which wasn't played as a single take, but still the effect is there). Also, "Be What You See" has that floaty kind of 6/8 (?) thing going. Also, the beginning of "Take It Away" always kind of throws me off until that pounding piano comes in.
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favoritething:
The "Tug Of War" album has a lot of shifting time signatures and tempos, most notably on "The Pound Is Sinking" (which wasn't played as a single take, but still the effect is there). Also, "Be What You See" has that floaty kind of 6/8 (?) thing going. Also, the beginning of "Take It Away" always kind of throws me off until that pounding piano comes in.
"The Pound Is Sinking" has a shift in tempos, but it's all 4/4. Good call on "Be What You See."
The first part of "Take It Away" is basically reggae. -
Two more McCartney compositions that shift signatures: -Good Day Sunshine -Figure Of Eight
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Blackbird is kind of interesting. There's a 3/4, 4/4, 2/4 combination that you don't see very often. | 3/4 | 4/4 | Intro | 3/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | First verse | 3/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | Second verse | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 5/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 5/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | rit to // | 4/4 | 4/4 | Bridge | 3/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | Third verse
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RMartinez:
The time signatures on the horn section of Band On the Run leading into the acoustic guitar, then the acoustic guitar into the vocal "Well, the rain exploded..." are unorthodox to me. The intro to Martha My Dear has a strange pattern, not your typical 1/2 or 1/4.
Band on the Run is just a dynamic tempo change with a dropped 2/4. Otherwise, it's all 4/4. With Martha My Dear, it sounds like they have 4/4, 5/4, 4/4 in the intro and beginning of each "Martha My Dear" verse, and then everything stays on 4/4 with a single 2/4 bar at the end of the bridge. They have a lot of 4/4 songs where they add in an extra 5/4 or 2/4 bar just to make whatever was in their heads fit.
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HaileyMcComet:
RMartinez:
The time signatures on the horn section of Band On the Run leading into the acoustic guitar, then the acoustic guitar into the vocal "Well, the rain exploded..." are unorthodox to me. The intro to Martha My Dear has a strange pattern, not your typical 1/2 or 1/4.
Band on the Run is just a dynamic tempo change with a dropped 2/4. Otherwise, it's all 4/4. With Martha My Dear, it sounds like they have 4/4, 5/4, 4/4 in the intro and beginning of each "Martha My Dear" verse, and then everything stays on 4/4 with a single 2/4 bar at the end of the bridge. They have a lot of 4/4 songs where they add in an extra 5/4 or 2/4 bar just to make whatever was in their heads fit.
Yes. True.
