Paul McCartney's complex rhythm/drum patterns
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I was looking up "All You Need Is Love," knowing that it's actually by John, but that song always springs to mind with its wacky time signature changes (7/4, 4/4, 6/4). Paul did have to play on it, though, and by the way, he has been quoted as saying he doesn't quite even understand the meaning of the lyrics in the verses! (It's always seemed a bit twisted to me, too, for a song with such a direct message in the chorus.) Anyway, in looking that up, I stumbled into a discussion of other odd time signatures, and "Two Of Us" (shifts to 3/4 during the "We're on our way home" repeats) was mentioned, along with "The End" (apparently it shifts between 3/4 and 4/4 in that final piano section after the solos, but it's hard for me to identify), and the final section of "Magical Mystery Tour" drifts into a 6/8 reverie. And "Oh! Darling" is all in 6/8.
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audi:
favoritething:
The "Tug Of War" album has a lot of shifting time signatures and tempos, most notably on "The Pound Is Sinking" (which wasn't played as a single take, but still the effect is there). Also, "Be What You See" has that floaty kind of 6/8 (?) thing going. Also, the beginning of "Take It Away" always kind of throws me off until that pounding piano comes in.
"The Pound Is Sinking" has a shift in tempos, but it's all 4/4. Good call on "Be What You See."
The first part of "Take It Away" is basically reggae. -
RMartinez:
That is your opinion and can never be proven. The Beatles were a collective phenomenon. Your thesis says even Paul would have been famous as a solo artist, or John would have been. But that can never be proven. If the Beatles never made it, Paul may have become a teacher, and played music for fun. John may have become an artist or factory worker. The Beatles didn't pick up a hack drummer to start their rise to fame, they got the best rock drummer in England, Ringo, because they KNEW they sounded amazing with him on drums, never mind his charismatic personality. George Harrison had a chemistry with John and Paul that took years to cultivate. People who say a band could have made by just putting another drummer in there or another guitarist don't really know much about how things work. If you are right, then why didn't they just keep Pete Best on drums? Because if they had, we would NEVER have heard of a band called The Beatles.
Well, that is also an opinion, and it can never be proven either. Any of this is speculation, but that doesn't make it baseless speculation either. John and Paul wrote the music and sang most of the songs, so I don't see how they wouldn't have made it, as the Beatles, without Ringo (and even George). That isn't to say they were not better with them. But think of the songs that started Beatlesmania: She Loves You, I want to hold your hand. Those songs would still have existed... When I said John and Paul would have made it solo, or with a band not including any of the others, that is of course starting from the assumption that they would have still pursued a career in music. They both were/are too great songwriters and singers, with great charisma as well, for them not to have made it had they followed that path. I do think there's a good chance they wouldn't have pursued a career in music without each other, but that's another discussion. I mean, John's band wasn't all that serious before Paul came in, and Paul even sort of quit the Beatles after their first Germany trip. He probably would have falled under his dad's pressure to get a real job without John's influence. Paul would probably have been a teacher and John had could have well become some sort of visual artist. Now, Paul did know George on his own, and his own brother formed a band later on, so maybe in this alternative universe George would have found himself in a band with two McCartneys lol. Anyway, I quote Hendrix here 'cause I think he explains it very well:
Hendrix Ibsen:
I think both John and Paul could have made it as songwriters/solo artists already early on if The Beatles hadn't happened. It took a while longer for the George to come up with the genius songs. Or they could have written all these great songs for others to sing, Lennon/McCartney had many giveway hits and it wasn't even their best ones. But The Beatles as a band... The combination of those four is so unique... The record companies have tried put together "beatles bands" since 1963/64, and they can't! John. Paul, George, Ringo... The greatest ever. It's just the way it is.
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favoritething:
I was looking up "All You Need Is Love," knowing that it's actually by John, but that song always springs to mind with its wacky time signature changes (7/4, 4/4, 6/4). Paul did have to play on it, though, and by the way, he has been quoted as saying he doesn't quite even understand the meaning of the lyrics in the verses! (It's always seemed a bit twisted to me, too, for a song with such a direct message in the chorus.) Anyway, in looking that up, I stumbled into a discussion of other odd time signatures, and "Two Of Us" (shifts to 3/4 during the "We're on our way home" repeats) was mentioned, along with "The End" (apparently it shifts between 3/4 and 4/4 in that final piano section after the solos, but it's hard for me to identify), and the final section of "Magical Mystery Tour" drifts into a 6/8 reverie. And "Oh! Darling" is all in 6/8.
All You Need is Love is one of their songs with a very definite pattern. Like Good Morning Good Morning, it might seem wacky, but it's very consistent. Two of Us can also go in that category. The End is all 4/4 except a single 2/4 bar just before the tempo change. That might not have even been a structural issue. They probably just cut off half the bar when they added the strings. Magical Mystery Tour can be written as all 4/4 with an obvious tempo change. The horns at the end would be playing quarter notes while the vocals are triplets. But based on the drum part, I'd say it's 6/8 at the end.
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HaileyMcComet:
favoritething:
I was looking up "All You Need Is Love," knowing that it's actually by John, but that song always springs to mind with its wacky time signature changes (7/4, 4/4, 6/4). Paul did have to play on it, though, and by the way, he has been quoted as saying he doesn't quite even understand the meaning of the lyrics in the verses! (It's always seemed a bit twisted to me, too, for a song with such a direct message in the chorus.) Anyway, in looking that up, I stumbled into a discussion of other odd time signatures, and "Two Of Us" (shifts to 3/4 during the "We're on our way home" repeats) was mentioned, along with "The End" (apparently it shifts between 3/4 and 4/4 in that final piano section after the solos, but it's hard for me to identify), and the final section of "Magical Mystery Tour" drifts into a 6/8 reverie. And "Oh! Darling" is all in 6/8.
All You Need is Love is one of their songs with a very definite pattern. Like Good Morning Good Morning, it might seem wacky, but it's very consistent. Two of Us can also go in that category. The End is all 4/4 except a single 2/4 bar just before the tempo change. That might not have even been a structural issue. They probably just cut off half the bar when they added the strings. Magical Mystery Tour can be written as all 4/4 with an obvious tempo change. The horns at the end would be playing quarter notes while the vocals are triplets. But based on the drum part, I'd say it's 6/8 at the end.
Consistent in a way, but it definitely shifts time signatures throughout the song. The "love love love" phrases are definitely seven beats each, whether you call that 7/4 or 4/4 + 3/4, and that continues in the verses, but then the chorus is 4/4 all the way. Is that what you mean?
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I really don't think it's 7/4 verses and 4/4 chorus. It doesn't fit. Each chorus is 4/4 with a single 2/4 bar at the end, but the intro, verses and guitar solo all follow a | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | pattern. They have plenty of songs with one time signature for the verses and another for the chorus, but All You Need is Love isn't one of them.
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HaileyMcComet:
I really don't think it's 7/4 verses and 4/4 chorus. It doesn't fit. Each chorus is 4/4 with a single 2/4 bar at the end, but the intro, verses and guitar solo all follow a | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | pattern. They have plenty of songs with one time signature for the verses and another for the chorus, but All You Need is Love isn't one of them.
I think you're correct about the structure, but my point is that the song keeps shifting time signatures. It doesn't matter to me at what point in the song it shifts, it just does. The original question was about songs with complex time signatures, and I would say this qualifies (except it was supposed to be Paul songs, and I threw this John song in there). Here's Paul's performance of it from 2002. Just watch the people trying to clap along during the solo and the third verse. They're mystified!
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favoritething:
HaileyMcComet:
I really don't think it's 7/4 verses and 4/4 chorus. It doesn't fit. Each chorus is 4/4 with a single 2/4 bar at the end, but the intro, verses and guitar solo all follow a | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | pattern. They have plenty of songs with one time signature for the verses and another for the chorus, but All You Need is Love isn't one of them.
I think you're correct about the structure, but my point is that the song keeps shifting time signatures. It doesn't matter to me at what point in the song it shifts, it just does. The original question was about songs with complex time signatures, and I would say this qualifies (except it was supposed to be Paul songs, and I threw this John song in there). Here's Paul's performance of it from 2002. Just watch the people trying to clap along during the solo and the third verse. They're mystified!
I agree -- it shifts throughout each verse. I'm not technical when it comes to terms; I rely on James Brown's principle by knowing when to identify "the one," which is the first beat of a measure. The verses in "All You Need Is Love" shift to a new "one" after the 7th beat, just before the last beat of the second 4/4 measure. My head hurts...
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audi:
favoritething:
HaileyMcComet:
I really don't think it's 7/4 verses and 4/4 chorus. It doesn't fit. Each chorus is 4/4 with a single 2/4 bar at the end, but the intro, verses and guitar solo all follow a | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | pattern. They have plenty of songs with one time signature for the verses and another for the chorus, but All You Need is Love isn't one of them.
I think you're correct about the structure, but my point is that the song keeps shifting time signatures. It doesn't matter to me at what point in the song it shifts, it just does. The original question was about songs with complex time signatures, and I would say this qualifies (except it was supposed to be Paul songs, and I threw this John song in there). Here's Paul's performance of it from 2002. Just watch the people trying to clap along during the solo and the third verse. They're mystified!
I agree -- it shifts throughout each verse. I'm not technical when it comes to terms; I rely on James Brown's principle by knowing when to identify "the one," which is the first beat of a measure. The verses in "All You Need Is Love" shift to a new "one" after the 7th beat, just before the last beat of the second 4/4 measure. My head hurts...
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Does something like this help? All You Need is Love | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | La Marseillaise | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | Intro | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | Verse | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | Verse | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | Chorus | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | Guitar solo | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | Chorus | 7/4 | 7/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 7/4 | Verse | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | Chorus | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 | 2/4 | Chorus | 4/4 | to fade out
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Yes, that's it.
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audi:
The instrumental section of "Live & Let Die" is STILL difficult for me to learn, as are songs like "Growing Up, Falling Down." "Another Day" is another good example of this highly technical rhythm-pattern that McCartney can write and perform effortlessly. The break just before the choruses of "Only Mama Knows" meets this standard, too.
The drum pattern of ANOTHER DAY was not "written" or performed by Paul, but by Denny Seiwell. Great drum part.
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I have wondered how "Band on the Run" would have been with Denny Seiwell on drums.
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Luca:
audi:
The instrumental section of "Live & Let Die" is STILL difficult for me to learn, as are songs like "Growing Up, Falling Down." "Another Day" is another good example of this highly technical rhythm-pattern that McCartney can write and perform effortlessly. The break just before the choruses of "Only Mama Knows" meets this standard, too.
The drum pattern of ANOTHER DAY was not "written" or performed by Paul, but by Denny Seiwell. Great drum part.
Au contraire: While Denny Seiwell may have finessed the specific drum-parts, it still had to adhere to the specific, written arrangement of the music. Now if you're suggesting that Seiwell came up with a lone drum-part, which influenced Paul McCartney to sit down and re-arrange "Another Day," tailored to Seiwell's drum-part, that I can accept. I will say this, though: It was Seiwell's idea to give "C Moon" its reggae groove, but I doubt that even that had caused a battlefield re-write.
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audi:
Luca:
audi:
The instrumental section of "Live & Let Die" is STILL difficult for me to learn, as are songs like "Growing Up, Falling Down." "Another Day" is another good example of this highly technical rhythm-pattern that McCartney can write and perform effortlessly. The break just before the choruses of "Only Mama Knows" meets this standard, too.
The drum pattern of ANOTHER DAY was not "written" or performed by Paul, but by Denny Seiwell. Great drum part.
Au contraire: While Denny Seiwell may have finessed the specific drum-parts, it still had to adhere to the specific, written arrangement of the music. Now if you're suggesting that Seiwell came up with a lone drum-part, which influenced Paul McCartney to sit down and re-arrange "Another Day," tailored to Seiwell's drum-part, that I can accept. I will say this, though: It was Seiwell's idea to give "C Moon" its reggae groove, but I doubt that even that had caused a battlefield re-write.
I suppose that my initial post inadvertently implied that Paul McCartney charted/scored the drum pattern to every song he's ever written. Paul has allowed his drummers lots of freedom, but they still had to play what he wanted, for the most part. "Lovers That Never Were" from 1993 was mentioned earlier, but another example is 2001's "She's Given Up Talking": Paul knew precisely the groove he wanted, and Abe generously stepped aside and let Paul record the drum track.
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I think the music of McCartney has a playfulness. it is not generic. To me he seems intuitive, he is not bound by rules. But he is a songwriter, so you don't play like crazy either, like a jam session, well, unless it's exactly what the song requires. One clothes the song in a way, with a kind of feeling for what it needs to work for what it is. Sometimes he plays everything himself, other times it's the band. McCartney can experiment, but he's also pop... Well, I have no idea. It's just my imagination.
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A few weeks before this thread, I wrote a blog on Macca's drumming. The English version is published now at Maccazine: http://mccartneymaccazine.com/drummer-boy-mccartney/
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The Eggman67:
A few weeks before this thread, I wrote a blog on Macca's drumming. The English version is published now at Maccazine: http://mccartneymaccazine.com/drummer-boy-mccartney/
What does this mean? "Lennon appellant never made this statement."?
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HaileyMcComet:
The Eggman67:
A few weeks before this thread, I wrote a blog on Macca's drumming. The English version is published now at Maccazine: http://mccartneymaccazine.com/drummer-boy-mccartney/
What does this mean? "Lennon appellant never made this statement."?
i That means that the statement 'How could Ringo be the best drummer in the world, if he is not even the best drummer of the Beatles' wasn't made by John. As far as I could find out the quote comes from a British comedian, made in 1983. Three years after Lennons death.
