Making rock/pop songs grammatically correct
-
illwobble:
audi:
illwobble:
When I listen to Taxman, it always slightly bothers me where he sings: "Don't ask me what I want it for... If you don't want to pay some more" Surely it should be: "Don't ask me what I want it for... Unless you want to pay some more" (or indeed Unless you'd like to pay some more")
You're probably right: I might be mistaken, but that may be what they call splitting an infinitive. Good catch!
Thanks audi, but no, the problem here is nothing to do with splitting infinitives, it's about negation and double negatives, which in English is pretty subtle. I mean, "If you don't want to pay any more" is an improvement grammatically but still wrong (and that's only partly because "any more" then means something else). I wonder whether George Martin or anyone else did give advice on grammatical errors or issues in the Beatles' lyrics. I guess this example reflects the fact that George (Harrison) wasn't as well educated as John or Paul.
I'll have to leave this one for the grammar gods.
-
illwobble:
audi:
illwobble:
When I listen to Taxman, it always slightly bothers me where he sings: "Don't ask me what I want it for... If you don't want to pay some more" Surely it should be: "Don't ask me what I want it for... Unless you want to pay some more" (or indeed Unless you'd like to pay some more")
You're probably right: I might be mistaken, but that may be what they call splitting an infinitive. Good catch!
Thanks audi, but no, the problem here is nothing to do with splitting infinitives, it's about negation and double negatives, which in English is pretty subtle. I mean, "If you don't want to pay any more" is an improvement grammatically but still wrong (and that's only partly because "any more" then means something else). I wonder whether George Martin or anyone else did give advice on grammatical errors or issues in the Beatles' lyrics. I guess this example reflects the fact that George (Harrison) wasn't as well educated as John or Paul.
Did a little digging (although Wiki can be incorrect sometimes): "In grammar, negation is the process that turns an affirmative statement (I am American) into its opposite denial (I am not American). The linguist D. Biber refers to two types of negation, synthetic ('no', 'neither' or 'nor' negation) and analytic ('not' negation)." If that theory is correct, then your observation does not apply, since the sentence "Don't ask me what I want..." is not affirmative. Geez...I'm probably off-base here. My head hurts.
-
audi:
illwobble:
audi:
illwobble:
When I listen to Taxman, it always slightly bothers me where he sings: "Don't ask me what I want it for... If you don't want to pay some more" Surely it should be: "Don't ask me what I want it for... Unless you want to pay some more" (or indeed Unless you'd like to pay some more")
You're probably right: I might be mistaken, but that may be what they call splitting an infinitive. Good catch!
Thanks audi, but no, the problem here is nothing to do with splitting infinitives, it's about negation and double negatives, which in English is pretty subtle. I mean, "If you don't want to pay any more" is an improvement grammatically but still wrong (and that's only partly because "any more" then means something else). I wonder whether George Martin or anyone else did give advice on grammatical errors or issues in the Beatles' lyrics. I guess this example reflects the fact that George (Harrison) wasn't as well educated as John or Paul.
Did a little digging (although Wiki can be incorrect sometimes): "In grammar, negation is the process that turns an affirmative statement (I am American) into its opposite denial (I am not American). The linguist D. Biber refers to two types of negation, synthetic ('no', 'neither' or 'nor' negation) and analytic ('not' negation)." If that theory is correct, then your observation does not apply, since the sentence "Don't ask me what I want..." is not affirmative. Geez...I'm probably off-base here. My head hurts.
You really want to pursue this one, audi?? The main problem here definitely falls into the "analytic negation" category: Do NOT ask me what I want it for, IF you do NOT want to pay some more. This is REALLY complex and subtle, but the core problem stems from those two NOTs struggling against each other, with that conditional clause IF making things even more dreadful. As a result the SOME is incorrect (should be ANY) unless the IF and [do] NOT are both replaced by negative counterpart UNLESS, which then tidies up the problem nicely. I'm glad you made me analyze this one: I thought at first it was a mainly stylistic problem rather than a grammatical one, but that just shows how deeply naive I was.
-
I bow to thee.
-
I bow to you both, seriously. I need to actually stop and think about what was just written its intense. thats some good grammer! I'm so bad at using proper grammer so its tough for me to pick out. I did pick out that Me So Horny line which was a tremendous call I personally think I write how I talk which is not perfectly, by any stretch of the imagination.. but overall in music I would expect lyrics to be litered with improper grammer, cause writers are simply trying to convey a message using words in the limited spaces provided by a given melody or song or poem structure. things just need to fit enough to convey a message. and it can flow so well, it makes it tough for me to recognize what the grammer is actually doing.. what about the lyric in my sig 'Try a little love, you can't go wrong!' Proper grammer? I like that line cause you could actually change its meaning with a comma: 'Try a little, Love, you can't go wrong!' ..like you're talking to someone called 'Love', telling her/him to try a little and reassuring them they can't go wrong! Thats Paul working it lyrically if you ask me
-
audi:
Nancy R:
21st Century Paul:
One I discovered in the band I'm into's last rehearsal: New Kid In Town, The Eagles "Johnny come lately there's a new kid in Town" "Johnny came lately there's a new kid in Town" (being picky...."in the town?")
It's "Johnny-Come-Lately" which is a newcomer. "There's a new kid in town." is perfectly acceptable (no "the" necessary before town) http://www.answers.com/topic/johnny-come-lately
ok, I didn't know about Johnny-Come-Lately but... isn't that wrong anyway?, a newcomer should be a "Johnny Came Lately"
-
well, since you are up to grammar, my english is not good enough to understand these lines, can anybody explain? Always, no sometimes, think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream. I think I know I mean a 'Yes' but it's all wrong, that is I think I disagree
-
21st Century Paul:
well, since you are up to grammar, my english is not good enough to understand these lines, can anybody explain? Always, no sometimes, think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream. I think I know I mean a 'Yes' but it's all wrong, that is I think I disagree
Stream-of-consciousness rantings of a man in a feverish bad dream. This is broken English, and makes no real sense as a full sentence like this, but to present it more accurately in a written form you'd have to punctuate it like this: Always... No... Sometimes think it's me, but you know... I know when it's a dream. I think... I know... I mean... uh, yes. But it's all wrong. That is: I think I disagree.
-
kapoo:
I bow to you both, seriously. I need to actually stop and think about what was just written its intense. thats some good grammer!
Thanks KPU! But don't let me or anyone else bluff you with jargon: what I said was partly BS! Audi was right that the lyric in question is not in the affirmative mood, but I see no reason the rule shouldn't apply to the prohibitive mood as well. P.S. Grammar is spelt with an a!
-
illwobble:
21st Century Paul:
well, since you are up to grammar, my english is not good enough to understand these lines, can anybody explain? Always, no sometimes, think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream. I think I know I mean a 'Yes' but it's all wrong, that is I think I disagree
Stream-of-consciousness rantings of a man in a feverish bad dream. This is broken English, and makes no real sense as a full sentence like this, but to present it more accurately in a written form you'd have to punctuate it like this: Always... No... Sometimes think it's me, but you know... I know when it's a dream. I think... I know... I mean... uh, yes. But it's all wrong. That is: I think I disagree.
like... I must be dreaming. No, I know i'm not dreaming. But "it's all wrong", the world is wrong and I disagree with them. is this the meaning?
-
Who said that rock-music fans are dumb? We're a bright bunch -- all of us!
-
kapoo:
I bow to you both, seriously. I need to actually stop and think about what was just written its intense. thats some good grammer! I'm so bad at using proper grammer so its tough for me to pick out. I did pick out that Me So Horny line which was a tremendous call I personally think I write how I talk which is not perfectly, by any stretch of the imagination.. but overall in music I would expect lyrics to be litered with improper grammer, cause writers are simply trying to convey a message using words in the limited spaces provided by a given melody or song or poem structure. things just need to fit enough to convey a message. and it can flow so well, it makes it tough for me to recognize what the grammer is actually doing.. what about the lyric in my sig 'Try a little love, you can't go wrong!' Proper grammer? I like that line cause you could actually change its meaning with a comma: 'Try a little, Love, you can't go wrong!' ..like you're talking to someone called 'Love', telling her/him to try a little and reassuring them they can't go wrong! Thats Paul working it lyrically if you ask me
Took me a second. Gotcha. Definitely changes the meaning! However, with your original line "Try a little love, you can't go wrong" -- grammatically speaking -- my junior high school teacher would NEVER tolerate putting a comma between two complete sentences. A "comma-splice" would've gotten me an automatic "0" on my term-paper. No matter how well-researched. She was ruthless.
-
audi:
However, with your original line "Try a little love, you can't go wrong" -- grammatically speaking -- my junior high school teacher would NEVER tolerate putting a comma between two complete sentences. A "comma-splice" would've gotten me an automatic "0" on my term-paper. No matter how well-researched. She was ruthless.
that is ruthless! its an honest mistake that woman needs to try a little love funny reading these.
-
kapoo:
I bow to you both, seriously. I need to actually stop and think about what was just written its intense. thats some good grammer! I'm so bad at using proper grammer so its tough for me to pick out. I did pick out that Me So Horny line which was a tremendous call I personally think I write how I talk which is not perfectly, by any stretch of the imagination.. but overall in music I would expect lyrics to be litered with improper grammer, cause writers are simply trying to convey a message using words in the limited spaces provided by a given melody or song or poem structure. things just need to fit enough to convey a message. and it can flow so well, it makes it tough for me to recognize what the grammer is actually doing.. what about the lyric in my sig 'Try a little love, you can't go wrong!' Proper grammer? I like that line cause you could actually change its meaning with a comma: 'Try a little, Love, you can't go wrong!' ..like you're talking to someone called 'Love', telling her/him to try a little and reassuring them they can't go wrong! Thats Paul working it lyrically if you ask me
kapoo, You spelled grammar wrong!
-
Nancy R:
kapoo, You spelled grammar wrong!
yes, my good friend illwobble pointed this out I'm telling you I'm horrible with grammAr, and spelling. probably better at spelling normally.. but especially on this board, its normally free flow stream of consciousness which leads to poor poor grammar and mispellings on my part. I'm going to work on this. I can improve.
-
illwobble:
21st Century Paul:
well, since you are up to grammar, my english is not good enough to understand these lines, can anybody explain? Always, no sometimes, think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream. I think I know I mean a 'Yes' but it's all wrong, that is I think I disagree
Stream-of-consciousness rantings of a man in a feverish bad dream. This is broken English, and makes no real sense as a full sentence like this, but to present it more accurately in a written form you'd have to punctuate it like this: Always... No... Sometimes think it's me, but you know... I know when it's a dream. I think... I know... I mean... uh, yes. But it's all wrong. That is: I think I disagree.
Two songbooks that I have list the lyrics as: Always know sometimes think it's me But you know I know and it's a dream I think I know of thee, ah, yes, but it's all wrong That is I think I disagree. I always thought John sang "Always, no, sometimes" but I agree with the rest (I think I know of thee, ah, yes)
-
Nancy R:
illwobble:
21st Century Paul:
well, since you are up to grammar, my english is not good enough to understand these lines, can anybody explain? Always, no sometimes, think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream. I think I know I mean a 'Yes' but it's all wrong, that is I think I disagree
Stream-of-consciousness rantings of a man in a feverish bad dream. This is broken English, and makes no real sense as a full sentence like this, but to present it more accurately in a written form you'd have to punctuate it like this: Always... No... Sometimes think it's me, but you know... I know when it's a dream. I think... I know... I mean... uh, yes. But it's all wrong. That is: I think I disagree.
Two songbooks that I have list the lyrics as: Always know sometimes think it's me But you know I know and it's a dream I think I know of thee, ah, yes, but it's all wrong That is I think I disagree. I always thought John sang "Always, no, sometimes" but I agree with the rest (I think I know of thee, ah, yes)
Well, let me get out my red editor's ink pen and get to work on this one: "Always know sometimes think it's me" (I can't even BEGIN to decipher that one!) "But you know (that) I know, (added a comma) and it's a dream I think (that) (added a conjunction/article) I know of thee. (period) Ah, yes, but it's all wrong That is: (colon) I think (that) I disagree." My head is hurting again.
-
I always thought it was: Always, no.. Sometimes think its me But you know I know and its a dream I think, er.. know, I mean, er.. yes but its all wrong That is I think I disagree crazy wordplay
-
Official lyrics as listed in sleeve notes and songbooks are very often badly or wrongly punctuated. It annoys me a little, but I guess the people who edit these things have little interest in punctuation. I remember noticing this on the sleeve notes of BOTR, but I've lent the CD to a friend so I can't give examples right now. I doubt you can take any songbook or anything as authoritative when it comes to punctuations in song lyrics. Plus, a lot of the lyrics on BOTR are pretty much meaningless anyway, no matter how you punctuate them!
-
So what's the final verdict on "Live & Let Die"? Is Paul really singing "..in which we live in"? I'm standing by "...in which we're living."