"Underappreciated Genius."
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tony conley:
yankeefan7:
BOYCIE:
yankeefan7:
McCartney lost at Golden Globe ceremony (Best Song - Movie), would be nice if he won at a award ceremony once .
As John would say "I'm A Loser" ops: It's funny how in the US he's always the Bridesmaid at awards ceremony,especially the Grammies.It's puzzling that Electric Arguments wasn't even nominated for the 2009 Grammy Awards,when Flaming Pie, Chaos and MAF were,very strange indeed.
Maybe because" Electric Arguments" is a "Fireman" and not aMcCartney record. I think that would be a dumb reason but I don't know any other explanation after all the good critical accaim for "Electric Arguments".
Let's face facts. The Grammy awarda are a sales tool more than an indicator of artistic merit, and as The Fireman, McCartney takes his genius outside his shop, so to speak. He's doing what many modern artists do and branching out into different segments of his persona, an admirable act that speaks to artt more than commerce. We live in a time when no one, I repeat no one, is much being touted as artists, geniuses, or for that matter even having their work looked at outside of their tabloid lives. And that is a shame that will grow larger in time if noot corrected. We need relevent discussion of art by those who lived with it as it happened, and not just to be forgotten or relegated to posthumous discussion by later generations. Look at the posts on any artists message board, and compare art to personality in terms of volume. And this is where art is looked at most. So, yeah, lets discuss Paul's underappreciated genius. His work has been an amazing testament to the man's life by most any measure.
I understand about the Grammys being a sales tool but still would enjoy seeing McCartney actually win. I do believe however that if McCartney won a Grammy/Golden Globe/Oscar the recognition might help the appreciation of his solo work.
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Yeah, it'd be great to see him win. I was speaking more towards the nomination process. Much the same as the Academy Awards.
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I'd like to see him win as well - but the upside is that he seems to be getting selected for nomination quite a bit these days....
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I lose total interest in a topic or in this case thread when the flow of the conversation is dictated. As long as the discussion isn't offensive let it flow, that's how conversation works! Seems to me everyone was enjoying the discussion! The setlist discussion was part of the natural flow of this conversation and then it was just abruptly cut off, if allowed to just flow it would of cut itself off. Unatural dictated conversation seems phony to me, the discussion of McCartneys setlist is a major ingredient in any discussion of his genius. It's one of the major areas where his genius isn't being observed!!
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BOYCIE:
In general Paul's post Beatle career is mocked especially here in the UK.I was reading a newspaper this week and they were saying that they hoped Paul would play a Beatles song on the X Factor as any song from the last 39 years was rubbish.It's this ignorance he has to fight against,mind you his setlist probably hints at this jaundiced view.Any little negativity shouldn't get to me but it's so wide of the mark this article it angers me.Paul's career has been erratic at times but there's still plenty of great songs that stand up to his Beatle works.I suppose he doesn't help himself by playing "Beatle Paul" over the last 20 years but his Wings/solo career is not an artistic wasteland and it should be celebrated not dismissed.I suppose an artist of Paul's longevity is going to suffer from negative press as he heads towards 70,but it's the ignorance of it that agitates me.I bet most haven't listened to anything for years so it's just ill informed garbage.Rant over,for now.
People need to be reminded that McCartney has been nominated for Grammy awards for "Flaming Pie", "CHAOS" and "MAF" and this includes record of the year twice. I would remind any of these people to check out the critical reviews of McCartney records in the US the last 15 yrs and they have been very good. (don'r know about UK reviews)I don't know if people in the UK care about the Granmmy awards but it still means something here in the US. I thought it was universal opinion that Wings was a success. Can anybody doubr the quality of BOTR. How do people in the UK explain McCartney's great success touring with Wings when he was not playing Beatle Paul in concert. The other thing I do when people say McCartney's solo career is junk is to ask them to name the records they don't like and I bet you they can' think of one which I believe proves your point. (they have not listened to one of his records in years)Finally, any artist is going to have peaks and valleys in a career that spans decades. Was Lennon's solo work that great, it was mediocre for the most part in my opinon. Harrison had some excellent moments (All Things Must Pass) but his solo career was not totally brillant either. I understand your frustration but I think we all know better because we have spent the time to actually listen to his new records and see him perform in concert.
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rich n:
I'd like to see him win as well - but the upside is that he seems to be getting selected for nomination quite a bit these days....
Would not be surprised if he gets Oscar nomination for this song and loses again.
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left hand man:
I lose total interest in a topic or in this case thread when the flow of the conversation is dictated. As long as the discussion isn't offensive let it flow, that's how conversation works! Seems to me everyone was enjoying the discussion! The setlist discussion was part of the natural flow of this conversation and then it was just abruptly cut off, if allowed to just flow it would of cut itself off. Unatural dictated conversation seems phony to me, the discussion of McCartneys setlist is a major ingredient in any discussion of his genius. It's one of the major areas where his genius isn't being observed!!
I agree and have stated the same thing. To me the mods job is to make sure any post is not offensive and that there are not numerous different threads about the same thing. If the setlist comes up in a thread, they should just "Let It Be" .
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yankeefan7:
BOYCIE:
yankeefan7:
McCartney lost at Golden Globe ceremony (Best Song - Movie), would be nice if he won at a award ceremony once .
As John would say "I'm A Loser" ops: It's funny how in the US he's always the Bridesmaid at awards ceremony,especially the Grammies.It's puzzling that Electric Arguments wasn't even nominated for the 2009 Grammy Awards,when Flaming Pie, Chaos and MAF were,very strange indeed.
Maybe because" Electric Arguments" is a "Fireman" and not aMcCartney record. I think that would be a dumb reason but I don't know any other explanation after all the good critical accaim for "Electric Arguments".
I think Electric arguments didn't get a grammy nod because it was released on a small independent label that doesn't have the money to lobby for a nomination. It's all business anyway.
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jlw44:
yankeefan7:
BOYCIE:
yankeefan7:
McCartney lost at Golden Globe ceremony (Best Song - Movie), would be nice if he won at a award ceremony once .
As John would say "I'm A Loser" ops: It's funny how in the US he's always the Bridesmaid at awards ceremony,especially the Grammies.It's puzzling that Electric Arguments wasn't even nominated for the 2009 Grammy Awards,when Flaming Pie, Chaos and MAF were,very strange indeed.
Maybe because" Electric Arguments" is a "Fireman" and not aMcCartney record. I think that would be a dumb reason but I don't know any other explanation after all the good critical accaim for "Electric Arguments".
I think Electric arguments didn't get a grammy nod because it was released on a small independent label that doesn't have the money to lobby for a nomination. It's all business anyway.
It was released on a small label but you would think the industry still knew it was a Paul McCartney record and it got excellent reviews.
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to be honest i dont like being dictated to.it kinda reminds me of school. the 'dont talk about the set list' police are becoming very very silly indeed. it makes me very frustrated when i am told what i can and cannot talk about.its bad enough having to censor yourself as to be 'politically correct' these days but this latest 'drive' on here to keep everthing in alphabetical order is plain O.T.T. if you having a healthy debate about anything its only natural that other issues are going to be disscused aswell.i cant for the life of me understand why anyone would want to go through everyones posts just to make sure they were still talking about the stated subject. very very sad :
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jlw44, I have to disagree with you about Electric Arguments. It wasn't nominated because the experimental side of McCartney isn't what the masses of people like from him. As I've been told many times, people want the Beatle McCartney! I have to admit that I don't like the Fireman myself, but after listening to the live performances of Sing The Changes and Highway, I absolutely love those two songs. This brings me right back to the point of McCartneys setlist, the live performances of those Fireman songs totally changed my mind about them, just imagine what would happen if McCartney let loose and performed much more of his post Beatles music, how many people would say hey I remember that song, and like it! It totally blows my mind that people seem to forget how popular Wings were and in many cases still are!! Who wouldn't like McCartney to hit the stage and rip thru... Hi Hi Hi Listen To What The Man Said Take It Away Juniors Farm No More Lonely Nights 1985 Getting Closer I've Had Enough I'll stop right there, but there are many post Beatle songs I could post. The point is, thru live performance McCartney could really show the genius of this fantastic material, it's just begging and screaming to be performed live. In the 70s there was no doubt about his genius when McCartney hit the stage, just go back and read the reviews of those Wings concerts! The music had to be very good because McCartney wasn't resting or depending on the Beatles! Really give that some thought, to be an ex-Beatle and not really performing Beatle songs, how good would your music have to be? I suspect it would have to be very very good! The world record setting crowds that showed up at Wings concerts certainly thought so!!
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I'm guessing if he released this under the name Paul McCartney on his regular label, which he easily could have done, it would have gotten a nom. Labels are basically what push an album into recognition, although it is true that a lot of 'fans' dismissed it without a listen because it was considered experimental when in fact it was just an album of Paul songs and they are missing out on one of his best.
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lazydynamite88:
to be honest i dont like being dictated to.it kinda reminds me of school. the 'dont talk about the set list' police are becoming very very silly indeed. it makes me very frustrated when i am told what i can and cannot talk about.its bad enough having to censor yourself as to be 'politically correct' these days but this latest 'drive' on here to keep everthing in alphabetical order is plain O.T.T. if you having a healthy debate about anything its only natural that other issues are going to be disscused aswell.i cant for the life of me understand why anyone would want to go through everyones posts just to make sure they were still talking about the stated subject. very very sad :
I admit I took part in the set list thing a little by posting a post about it in this thread, but honestly I think the set list thing is overdone. Every single thread that goes on for any length of time seems to turn into a set list debate. As I see it, if people want to talk about the set list that much, go to a thread specifically about the setlist, don't turn every thread into a debate about the setlist. Mods aren't just here to "keep the peace" they are also here to make sure the threads stay remotely on topic. And honestly I don't think setlist choices have a single thing to do with "genius". Even geniuses can choose a set list that some people might not like. For another thing I actually think a lot of those Wings songs would be harder for him to sing. I love Hi Hi Hi, but if he did that and 1985(which I have to admit that One Hand Clapping vid sort of gave me a new appreciation for) and I've Had Enough and Junior's Farm, as well as a few others I know I like, his voice would probably be done for after three shows. Paul's voice was really kind of in top form during those years and he made use of it, which has the flipside of making those songs more taxing to sing I think. Yes he does his screamers now but I just think in general a lot of Wings stuff, especially the stuff that is most fun in concert, is probably pretty taxing vocally.
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High_Wilusa, you know what also amazes me, how come the hard to sing comments only apply to McCartneys post Beatles music? what in the world is harder to sing than Helter Skelter? I just don't buy the hard to sing theory. He can sing any Beatle song, but when it comes to the post Beatle material all of a sudden he can't sing anymore! I can only speak for me, but I don't believe that for one second! As for the setlist debate, it's an area where McCartneys genius is most definitely underappreciated!! What I find really puzzling about it is the fact that McCartney himself underappreciates it! Also Electric arguments is not just an album of McCartney songs, McCartney himself said that they strived for different arrangements and sound, some of those songs are really out there!! Listen to something like the song Two Magpies, really strange stuff!
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left hand man:
High_Wilusa, you know what also amazes me, how come the hard to sing comments only apply to McCartneys post Beatles music? what in the world is harder to sing than Helter Skelter? I just don't buy the hard to sing theory. He can sing any Beatle song, but when it comes to the post Beatle material all of a sudden he can't sing anymore! I can only speak for me, but I don't believe that for one second! As for the setlist debate, it's an area where McCartneys genius is most definitely underappreciated!! What I find really puzzling about it is the fact that McCartney himself underappreciates it! Also Electric arguments is not just an album of McCartney songs, McCartney himself said that they strived for different arrangements and sound, some of those songs are really out there!! Listen to something like the song Two Magpies, really strange stuff!
I don't think Electric Arguments is any stranger than McCartney 2, to my ears it's just a little more "out there" Paul record than his more considered albums. As for "he can't sing his Wings songs because there difficult to sing" i think that's a red herring,he's more than capable of singing most of them.If he can sing Jet he can sing the others.I think Jet is one of the toughest Wings songs to sing as it goes all over the place vocally,so if he can play that he can play a lot more Wings material.
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BOYCIE:
left hand man:
High_Wilusa, you know what also amazes me, how come the hard to sing comments only apply to McCartneys post Beatles music? what in the world is harder to sing than Helter Skelter? I just don't buy the hard to sing theory. He can sing any Beatle song, but when it comes to the post Beatle material all of a sudden he can't sing anymore! I can only speak for me, but I don't believe that for one second! As for the setlist debate, it's an area where McCartneys genius is most definitely underappreciated!! What I find really puzzling about it is the fact that McCartney himself underappreciates it! Also Electric arguments is not just an album of McCartney songs, McCartney himself said that they strived for different arrangements and sound, some of those songs are really out there!! Listen to something like the song Two Magpies, really strange stuff!
I don't think Electric Arguments is any stranger than McCartney 2, to my ears it's just a little more "out there" Paul record than his more considered albums. As for "he can't sing his Wings songs because there difficult to sing" i think that's a red herring,he's more than capable of singing most of them.If he can sing Jet he can sing the others.I think Jet is one of the toughest Wings songs to sing as it goes all over the place vocally,so if he can play that he can play a lot more Wings material.
Not a Red Herring. It's quantity. Yes he can sing Jet, yes he can sing Helter Skelter but a lot of the Wings songs I know I'd want to hear are at least almost as difficult to sing. It's one thing to sing a 3 or 4 songs like that, it's another to sing say 10 songs like that.
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High_Wilusa, I still don't get it? He sings way more than 10 Beatles songs like that! If he can sing that many Beatle songs like that, he can sing just as many Wings or solo songs just like that!
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left hand man:
High_Wilusa, I still don't get it? He sings way more than 10 Beatles songs like that! If he can sing that many Beatle songs like that, he can sing just as many Wings or solo songs just like that!
I am not talking about the set list anymore in this thread, I've explained myself as clearly I am able, if you don't get it, my saying it again won't help. My fault for not being able to explain more clearly, not yours. To put it simply, I think the Wings song are harder.
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Out of the items on this list, I'm starting to decide which ones I think he's a real genius at:
- Musical composition -- pop melodies, soft balads (Yesterday...) 2) Musical composition -- pop melodies, hard rock (Helter Skelter...) 3) Musical composition -- classical style (Standing Sone...) 4) Musical composition -- experimental (Fireman instrumentals...) 5) Lyrics -- love songs -- (Silly Love songs...) 6) Lyrics -- Social message (C'mon People...) 7) Lyrics -- Raunchy (Hi Hi Hi...) 8 Poetry 9) Children's book authour 10) Essays (Environmental speeches, Queen's Jubilee...) 11) PR writing (Messages to fans...) 12) Screenwriting 13) Visual art (paintings) 14) Film directing 15) Vocalist 16) Instrumentalist (could be separated into each instrument he plays 17) Teacher/mentor 1 Theatre? (Did he write/visualise the pre-show for 2003 tour?) 19) Album concepts 20) Live Performance (connection with audience etc.) 21) Live concert planning (set lists, visuals, band members...)
1-4 are on my list for sure. 5-7, song lyrics I'm leaning towards yes, but there are some lyrics and his comments that he often throws words in because they sound good that have me still debating with myself. Anyone else want to get in on that? (Yesterday, brilliant, Biker like an Icon, some childish sounding rhyming at the beginning...) 8 I havent' read enough of his poetry. I'm not a big poetry reader or expert, if anyone is I'd love to hear your thoughts. 9 I'd say no, but maybe there's unfulfilled potenial. My daughter enjoyed the book, but didn't rave about it, said there was some badly written stuff, which I agree with. 10 Well, I do think his essay about the jubilee from age 11 that has surfaced showed real talent! It was beautifully written and thought out! I'm very impressed. I think I'm willing to say there's some real genius in his writing. 11 I"m not sure I can evaluate, not sure what he's written himself, what was off-the-cuff comments etc. 12. Some true potential I believe. More in Broadway thread later, basically I think if he'd focussed on writing instead of music he may have fulfilled potential that's hinted at. Film school might have helped, too. 13. That's a hard one to evaluate, art is so personal. Tastes vary, people use art as therapy. I love some of the colour patterns and combinations he comes up with. I'm not ready to add this to my list, it's another one he might have genius potential in. I think he's talented for sure. More thoughts later.
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I'll keep it simple as well, Paul McCartney can sing anything he decides, that's part of his genius!