The ..2012.... Political thread
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mydaybreaks:
Occupy Wall Street? How about occupy a job?
Only if you go out and hand it to them...LOL
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* Unlike an earlier read in this thread ..... I get a kick out of humor ..... even if I don't agree with it politically .... a well done or good timing bit can be amusing .... (Perhaps it is the writer, cartoonist ..... or just someone in the audience who likes a good show). Read, over heard, over saw .... #1. Someone said they should not use the police to break up the crowd ... instead they should have people with clipboards saying they are hiring ... that will make them break up and go away fast. #2. Someone was heard to say they should call the O.W.S. people - in the place that they stay .... Obamaville. I am willing to hear it from both sides ..... because I like a good grin - or a comical hit that did its job.
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rich n:
service_gamer:
rich n:
service_gamer:
EADG:
SusyLuvsPaul:
The Occupy movement isn't asking for "free handouts," that's simplifying , it is purposefully misunderstanding what they're about, rather. It's a head in the sand reactionary pose. Servicegamer certainly seems to know what he's talking about and makes sense. No fuzzy hedging and focusing on trivialities and distractions. He sounds like he took Logic courses in college, and learned how to think. I'll go by what he says rather than you conservative types
Service gamer called me ignorant, then proceeded to post a definition of antisocial personality disorder ( the point I'd made that he took exception to) that described the exact behavior that I had cited in the ows crowd. So he agrees with me while claiming to disagree. I don't know what to say in response to that. By the way service gamer, I work about 70 hours a week and I worked way more than that when I was your age. (Success takes sacrifice, so keep at it.) And I do volunteer work and raise a family. I visit this site for fun occasionally because I stumbled upon it last year and I thought some of the people who post here were kind of interesting, even when I disagree with them. Sorry if you think I've been ignoring you, but I won't bother replying when your posts are so off base (see above).
Um, for starters, my definition of anti-social personality disorder (in short, those who violates others' rights) was nowhere to be found in your take on the OWS. You made the vague claims that they were acting childish, then said -- with not even a scintilla of evidence mind you -- that "obviously a large percentage of them have anti-social personality disorders." Forget the fact that you are under the mistaken impression that they have no right to protest in public areas (I hate to break it to you, but just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean that they aren't part of the general public) which would make sense why you don't understand my rebuke of your assertions. Instead, consider the contradictory nature of a "large percentage" of a large group of having anti-social
amount of hours." I love how you addressed your message to me even though rich n was the first to interject such discussion (which has no place here and only serves to misdirect us from the larger point...gee, is that a coincidence?), I merely replied that I work my fair share and am not just some out-of-work loser that you guys seem to think make up the bulk of the OWS. Oh, and I also don't need a holier-than-thou lecture on volunteer work, you have no idea what I do, nor I you, so being so preachy really has no place here.First - I didn't first interject anything...your accusations of 'post and run' (or how ever you worded it) 'interjected' the notion that you don't understand life (already obvious from your position on this)...have you tried visiting one of these occupy protests...The one here in Boston isn't too far away from Gov't Center and here's what I observe (many times with my daughter, who's only 13): 1) It truly is 95% homeless folks - you need to see it for yourself if you don't buy it. The 'intellects' that you see on TV come over after their done working on their own job, stay for a little while, then leave and go home to sleep in a warm bed while the homeless people are left to 'represent' the Occupy movement overnight while sleeping in tents. 2) I truly smells like you're visiting a country with subpar sewage system (my one experience to compare to was during a trip to Cozumel, Mexico) 3) If you're not readily identified as 'one orf them', you'll have at least a dozen 'folks' giving you the bird, or a gesture where they grab their crotch in an 'eff you' gesture...and most folks were minding their own business just walking past from their own point a to point b without no interest either way 3) The last time I was there - and I wish this hit the news, but I'm guessing it stayed under wraps because I never saw anything broadcast about it, a group of Occupiers broke ranks and went over to raise hell and demonstrate against the arrest of a terrorist (re: if you have any interest, look up Sudbury, MA man arrested/suspected of planning terrorist acts and having ties with Al Qaeda)...guess they forget to blog and brag about that like when they held a moment of silence for the whitehouse shooter (who by all rights should've had his brains spatter in different areas throughout Penn Ave)...The face put on by many of the police officers was priceless... 4) Many there (mostly the homeless, which as I mentioned before, is probably around 95%) believe they are there because they're eventually going to get free room and board out of the deal. If you don't buy any of these, you certain can go take a look for your self rather than reading the 'glorified' recaps on line or on the news. It's right near Gov't Center (I think the section is called Dewey Square)... I've been under the weather...but since I'm feeling better - maybe my daughter and I will hop on the T and hit the aqurium again (we're season pass holders - LOL)...I mention this because it will put us right in the proximity again and this time, I'll bring my camera...LOL
You brought up the number of hours you worked, not me, then I was chastised for mentioning by EADG...sorry to tell you, but it was introduced into the discussion by you. At the end of the day, it's an Internet message board and it's fun to get into these little ideological arguments, but some of these revisionist history responses I'm getting from you guys -- even when I can plainly refer back to the original posts (and do) -- is getting annoying. Now, on to your observations. The Occupy protests I've witnessed in Indianapolis and on the Indiana University campus isn't full of homeless folks. Sure, some mill around, particularly in the Indy area, but it sure as heck wasn't even close to 95%, maybe 5%. You are making such assertions and the burden of proof has to be on you; you can't just say 'Oh, it's the homeless people in tents, the actual protesters go home' when I doubt you've done the requisite research and observation to make such claims. And besides, if these tent camps were 95% homeless people, camping out in parks in such numbers would have been happening long before the OWS. Also, let's just play devil's advocate and assume your 95% assertion was right; who cares? Are homeless people not allowed to protest against greed and corruption, or have you bought into the conservative propaganda that anyone who isn't rich and/or votes Republican is a leech that's trying to manipulate the system? 2) It didn't smell at either of the places I went to. So again, maybe Boston is the anomaly, maybe Indiana is the anomaly, either way, I'm not making such judgments (and again, this just reeks -- pun intended -- of trying to distract from the issue, as what does this ancillary factor really have to do with the actual argument at hand?). 3) Not in my experience, and again, you offer no proof other than your word. Considering your views on these people, that makes this claim pretty flimsy. 4) Again, you make these accusations with no proof. And the 'you'll just have to believe me, if not research this guy' is laughable. Give me the name of this alleged OWS-worshiped terrorist and I'll do the research, but it shouldn't be on me to educate myself on this guy (even if it did happen, there's fringe elements in every day life; if you think this reflects on the entire movement, then can we discuss about how racist Tea Partiers, as well as the U.S. South, is?). What you are doing is classic misdirection propaganda. That sounds pretty extreme, and you may not realize that's what you are doing, but you are interjecting opinion without proof and trying to pass it off as some sort of on-the-field firsthand account. You really expect me to believe you've gleaned all this information in one of your visits? Sounds fishy at best. 5) This doesn't really make sense to me, unless room-and-board is some sort of weak entitlement joke. I don't live in Boston, otherwise I would, but I've taken a look at the protests in my area and NONE of the behavior you have described is on display. Again, maybe Indy isn't indicative of the larger movement, maybe Boston isn't, but to make such negative accusations the burden of proof has to be on you. Oh, and while you are uploading your aquarium visit pictures onto the board, maybe you can include a couple snaps of this: http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ows-pepper-spray-e1321736361456.jpg?w=567&h=406 or this: http://rt.com/files/usa/news/police-occupy-seattle-francisco-503/seattle-activist-protest-rainey.n.jpg Boy, these protesters are just out of control...LOL
For - as you request, a snippet from an article... "BOSTON ? A pharmacy college graduate made a defiant appearance in federal court Wednesday, hours after being charged with conspiring with two other men in a terror plot to kill two prominent U.S. politicians and carry out a holy war by attacking shoppers in U.S. malls and American troops in Iraq. Authorities say the men's plans ? in which they used code words like "peanut butter and jelly" for fighting in Somalia and "culinary school" for terrorist camps ? were thwarted in part when they could not find training and were unable to buy automatic weapons, authorities said. Tarek Mehanna, 27, was arrested Wednesday morning at his parents' home in Sudbury, an upscale suburb 20 miles west of Boston, and appeared for a brief hearing later in the day. When ordered by the judge to stand to hear the charge against him, he refused. He finally did stand ? tossing his chair loudly to the floor ? only after his father urged him to do so." And then silly me - what I observed did make the news...LOL "Members of Occupy Boston walked from their encampment at Dewey Square to the federal courthouse, where they staged a protest on behalf of Mehanna"...is the headline of a photo associated with this (see below) article... http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrodesk/2011/10/trial-homegrown-terrorist-begin-today/6FU5TxE91cw3IKdM1Cc1rI/index.html And you use the example of a college campus protest (wannabes actually) as a means of 'painting the picture' of a 'typical' occupy camp!?!?!? Are you eff'n kidding me?!?!?!? Why don't you head into a real city and see what they're really about?
I didn't say it wasn't the case, I just said it's funny that you would ask me to do the research. I also didn't deny that such things could take place, but that there are fringe elements in any movement or protest. We could really get a lot of progress if you would read my entire posts, rather than just pick and choose where you want to respond. Secondly, you'll note in my previous comments that I mentioned visiting protests at Indiana University and Indianapolis, the latter which, last I checked, is a city (albeit not the size of Boston). Nevertheless, refer to the pictures I posted (which you conveniently ignored...again) and note the police brutality taking place at a "wannabe" college protest. You want a taste of your own logic? Here goes: ALL of the police are corrupt because I've seen pictures of some police officers abusing protesters. If they are senselessly beating college protesters, imagine how much they must brutalize "real" protesters in full-fledged cities. See how ridiculous that is? But when you pick and choose stories here and there and try to apply that to the narrative about an entire movement -- which is what you are doing with the Mehanna story. I've outlined that in my previous posts, and it frustrates me to no end that this seems to be repeatedly ignored. You may think I'm full of crap, but I pretty much write extensively in response to your postings, which hasn't been reciprocated. Regardless of all this, the OWS is neither totally perfect, nor totally flawed. I've defended them yes, but I have acknowledged some of their foibles and recognized when the fringe elements have done wrong (don't believe me, you can just look at my previous posts). You completely ignore large portions of my posts (just last time, I went through your five points and dissected them and noted when they are simply baseless accusations, such as your 95% homeless claim) and there are, to my shock, enough people that espouse such rabid opinions on the topic here that you can just shout over the discussion and steer the conversation elsewhere. In the last few days, you've gone from saying the OWS has no direction, is unsanitary, has direction but is flawed, comprises mostly homeless people, and supports terrorists. You've done so based on opinion which you've tried to pass off as fact, unverifiable first-hand accounts and documented reports of isolated incidents which you've tried to spin as being indicative of the entire movement. I'm at a personal impasse, because I have a compulsive need to get the last word in (especially when I'm certain that my argument is right), but am getting annoyed revisiting the OWS with these same members on here: You, EADG and Andy Shofar. The last straw was the latter's post about the W Hotel. Andy, of course there are going to be stories like this in any movement, it's large enough that there will be outliers who act poorly, but it's important to remember -- at least at this point -- that they are the exception rather than the rule (also, I've covered whether or not the OWS protesters are being greedy or behaving poorly towards small business owners twice in this thread, do I really have to visit it again?). It's the same for police brutality, which I DON'T think is an epidemic, but bring up because it can be exaggerated in similar fashion to poor behavior from protesters. You apparently have an ax to grind with these people, be it personal or political. There's nothing that I'm going to say that will change that. So, I merely leave you with a question: Do you honestly believe that the OWS represents lazy, entitled Americans and that the greed and corruption on Wall Street in the past few years do not have nearly as much to do with unemployment and a struggling economy as the "leeches" who refuse to find work? If you really think the answer to that question is 'Yes,' I'll think it's totally unfair to the millions of Americans who would do anything to get a job to support their families but can't, but can do nothing more than begrudgingly respect it. In short, this is me extending my peace offering. I feel that the discussion has started to become personal for all parties involved, and I have maintained that I find heated discussion enjoyable but ultimately don't take offense; while I love smug repartee, I also don't want to make someone feel like a moron, whether or not I think they have the wrong view on a particular topic. So right now, we can agree to disagree and be friendly about this (and move on to something else we most certainly also will have differing opinions on) and I'll nary mention the OWS again (unless circumstances radically change in the national landscape). Or, you can decline and it's game-on. Because I'm stubborn enough to vehemently argue about this all day. This isn't a trick or a trap, nor is it a surrender, but frankly I'm devoting a ton of time to this debate and feel we are getting nowhere fast.
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rich n:
mydaybreaks:
Occupy Wall Street? How about occupy a job?
Only if you go out and hand it to them...LOL
What are we gonna do with you, Rich?
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With the recent 60 Minutes report on Congressional insider trading, this Paul McCartney song seems more relevant than ever: BIG BOYS BICKERING (live, 1992):
We should ALL be disgusted by Congressional exceptionalism: "Illegal for everybody -- except us." As the book's title suggest: Some days I think we should Throw Them All Out! -
Militarization Of Campus Police by Bob Ostertag. Composer, historian, journalist, and Professor of Technocultural Studies and Music at UC Davis Yesterday, police at UC Davis attacked seated students with a chemical gas. I teach at UC Davis and I personally know many of the students who were the victims of this brutal and unprovoked assault. They are top students. In fact, I can report that among the students I know, the higher a student's grade point average, the more likely it is that they are centrally involved in the protests. This is not surprising, since what is at issue is the dismantling of public education in California. Just six years ago, tuition at the University of California was $5357. Tuition is currently $12,192. According to current proposals, it will be $22,068 by 2015-2016. We have discussed this in my classes, and about one third of my students report that their families would likely have to pull them out of school at the new tuition. More here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/uc-davis-protest_b_1103039.html
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Reading that makes Newt Gingrich's "take a bath" comment even more absurd.
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Poet-Bashing Police by Robert Hass Robert Hass is a professor of poetry and poetics at the University of California, Berkeley, and former poet laureate of the United States. LIFE, I found myself thinking as a line of Alameda County deputy sheriffs in Darth Vader riot gear formed a cordon in front of me on a recent night on the campus of the University of California, Berkeley, is full of strange contingencies. The deputy sheriffs, all white men, except for one young woman, perhaps Filipino, who was trying to look severe but looked terrified, had black truncheons in their gloved hands that reporters later called batons and that were known, in the movies of my childhood, as billy clubs. More here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/opinion/sunday/at-occupy-berkeley-beat-poets-has-new-meaning.html?_r=1
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New study watching Fox News makes one dumber http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/11/21/some_news_makes_you_know_less.html
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mustangsally10:
New study watching Fox News makes one dumber http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/11/21/some_news_makes_you_know_less.html
The final nail in their credibility's coffin was when they falsified footage for at least two of their rallies in 2009/2010. Also, Rupert Murdoch's got eeven BIGGER worries -- thanks to the voice-mail hacking scandal he green-lighted.
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The_Fool:
* Unlike an earlier read in this thread ..... I get a kick out of humor ..... even if I don't agree with it politically .... a well done or good timing bit can be amusing .... (Perhaps it is the writer, cartoonist ..... or just someone in the audience who likes a good show). Read, over heard, over saw .... #1. Someone said they should not use the police to break up the crowd ... instead they should have people with clipboards saying they are hiring ... that will make them break up and go away fast. #2. Someone was heard to say they should call the O.W.S. people - in the place that they stay .... Obamaville. I am willing to hear it from both sides ..... because I like a good grin - or a comical hit that did its job.
O.W.S. All we are sayin' Is give us your cash And if you will not We'll make war not peace ...
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Michael Bloomberg fuels presidential talk with attack on Barack Obama By Toby Harnden, Washington 6:34PM GMT 22 Nov 2011 Michael Bloomberg has launched an attack on Barack Obama for an absence of leadership as Washington failed to hammer out a deficit deal ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us- election/8907884/Michael-Bloomberg-fuels-presidential-talk-with-attack-on-Barack-Obama.html
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audi:
mustangsally10:
New study watching Fox News makes one dumber http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/11/21/some_news_makes_you_know_less.html
The final nail in their credibility's coffin was when they falsified footage for at least two of their rallies in 2009/2010. Also, Rupert Murdoch's got eeven BIGGER worries -- thanks to the voice-mail hacking scandal he green-lighted.
Hey audi, oh yes, the Murdoch's are in deep. James just resigned from NI today. They're going down but too slow for me. Re the study of fox news watchers Since the studies have been consistent I'm wondering which came first. You know like the chicken and the egg story. Does Fox News make people dumber or do dumb people gravitate to Fox News? I'm thinking the latter since so many of their viewers tend to vote against their best interests they drink up the kool aid.
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First of all, "Egyptians" did not overthrow their government. The Muslim brotherhood, with help from the Army AND Members of SEIU overthrew the government....credibility crashed and burned, LOL
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mustangsally10:
audi:
mustangsally10:
New study watching Fox News makes one dumber http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/11/21/some_news_makes_you_know_less.html
The final nail in their credibility's coffin was when they falsified footage for at least two of their rallies in 2009/2010. Also, Rupert Murdoch's got eeven BIGGER worries -- thanks to the voice-mail hacking scandal he green-lighted.
Hey audi, oh yes, the Murdoch's are in deep. James just resigned from NI today. They're going down but too slow for me. Re the study of fox news watchers Since the studies have been consistent I'm wondering which came first. You know like the chicken and the egg story. Does Fox News make people dumber or do dumb people gravitate to Fox News? I'm thinking the latter since so many of their viewers tend to vote against their best interests they drink up the kool aid.
Second point - the fact that you (of all people) would question anyone's intellegence or intellectual skills is so stupendously breathtakingly astonishingly hypocritical (not to mention 'whack'), one has to wonder whether you're just kidding in regards to your comments above or if you are truly that terrifyingly misguided. Additionally, given that you have no working knowledge of any agency not affiliated with Daily KOS invalidates and fully devalues any opinion you might have...
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There's no way you can know that she only gets news from The Daily Kos, you've been caught in another fallacy, another illogical statement or so it appears.
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rich n:
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SusyLuvsPaul:
There's no way you can know that she only gets news from The Daily Kos, you've been caught in another fallacy, another illogical statement or so it appears.
Actually it's hugely simple to come to that conclusion - in fact, the only way it's not obvious is if you're blind