The ..2012.... Political thread
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The stock market is tanking because of Obama's proposed tax increases.
Obama has proposed effective tax increases of 20 percent or more in the two top income tax rates, phasing out the personal exemptions and all itemized deductions for top earners, as well as raising their tax rates. He wants a 33 percent increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends, an increase of 16 percent to 32 percent in the top payroll tax rate, reinstatement of the death tax with a 45 percent top rate, and a new payroll tax on employers estimated at 7 percent to help finance his health insurance plan.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=politicaeneeuu&message.id=86760 Remember he wants a 33% increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends! Of course people are scrambling like crazy! Here is a reminder of the Jimmy Carter legacy:
The American economy was in shambles when Reagan entered office in 1981. Inflation had soared by 25 percent over the prior two years, unemployment was heading toward 10 percent, the prime interest rate hit 21 percent, poverty was on a 33 percent upswing, and real family income had decreased by almost 10 percent.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=politicaeneeuu&message.id=86760 Jimmy Carter also believed the economy grew from the bottom up! :
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deKooningartist:
The stock market is tanking because of Obama's proposed tax increases.
Obama has proposed effective tax increases of 20 percent or more in the two top income tax rates, phasing out the personal exemptions and all itemized deductions for top earners, as well as raising their tax rates. He wants a 33 percent increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends, an increase of 16 percent to 32 percent in the top payroll tax rate, reinstatement of the death tax with a 45 percent top rate, and a new payroll tax on employers estimated at 7 percent to help finance his health insurance plan.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=politicaeneeuu&message.id=86760 Remember he wants a 33% increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends! Of course people are scrambling like crazy! Here is a reminder of the Jimmy Carter legacy:
The American economy was in shambles when Reagan entered office in 1981. Inflation had soared by 25 percent over the prior two years, unemployment was heading toward 10 percent, the prime interest rate hit 21 percent, poverty was on a 33 percent upswing, and real family income had decreased by almost 10 percent.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=politicaeneeuu&message.id=86760 Jimmy Carter also believed the economy grew from the bottom up! :
How on earth did we survive before the stock market?
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This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
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Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
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SurSteven:
deKooningartist:
The stock market is tanking because of Obama's proposed tax increases.
Obama has proposed effective tax increases of 20 percent or more in the two top income tax rates, phasing out the personal exemptions and all itemized deductions for top earners, as well as raising their tax rates. He wants a 33 percent increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends, an increase of 16 percent to 32 percent in the top payroll tax rate, reinstatement of the death tax with a 45 percent top rate, and a new payroll tax on employers estimated at 7 percent to help finance his health insurance plan.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=politicaeneeuu&message.id=86760 Remember he wants a 33% increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends! Of course people are scrambling like crazy! Here is a reminder of the Jimmy Carter legacy:
The American economy was in shambles when Reagan entered office in 1981. Inflation had soared by 25 percent over the prior two years, unemployment was heading toward 10 percent, the prime interest rate hit 21 percent, poverty was on a 33 percent upswing, and real family income had decreased by almost 10 percent.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=politicaeneeuu&message.id=86760 Jimmy Carter also believed the economy grew from the bottom up! :
How on earth did we survive before the stock market?
I have no idea
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deKooningartist:
SurSteven:
How on earth did we survive before the stock market?
I have no idea
me either!
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Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
If I may, Bill?? The regulation issue occurred under the Clinton administration with major assistance from the republican congress at the time. A minor but important point.
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And a fair one. However, it's an issue that the Bush administration never thought to revisit, despite reversing other Clinton initiatives such as climate change and counter terrorism as soon as they could. If people want to give Obama six months' grace before blaming everything that happens on him, that's fine, but they can't also blame Clinton for the economic crisis 7¾ years into the Bush administration. You're right to point out that there's plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the consequences of total deregulation. I'm just curious to see if there is just one thing that has happened in the last eight years the president has actually been responsible for.
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deKooningartist:
Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
So you're stating as absolute fact that the drop is directly attributable to the American people's foolish election of Obama and has nothing to do with all the other factors that have had it sliding since September? If so, I'd say that's a pretty big call considering recent volatility. The fact is that Obama is going to have to make some tough and perhaps painful decisions in cleaning up after an administration that thought it could cut taxes while increasing spending, having two wars and creating a socialised safety net for banks that made dumb decisions. If it means some people are going to get a lower dividend on their AT&T shares, then they can remind themselves to put Country First. The same realities would apply to a McCain presidency. I trust you would judge him as harshly?
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Someone and I were talking. and that other person said to me. It is funny how Bill knows more about America then even we do. I said, that is because, he reads up on it. and he is real smart. I wish I could be that way. however, I can't stay still enough to read.
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Bill:
deKooningartist:
Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
So you're stating as absolute fact that the drop is directly attributable to the American people's foolish election of Obama and has nothing to do with all the other factors that have had it sliding since September? If so, I'd say that's a pretty big call considering recent volatility. The fact is that Obama is going to have to make some tough and perhaps painful decisions in cleaning up after an administration that thought it could cut taxes while increasing spending, having two wars and creating a socialised safety net for banks that made dumb decisions. If it means some people are going to get a lower dividend on their AT&T shares, then they can remind themselves to put Country First. The same realities would apply to a McCain presidency. I trust you would judge him as harshly?
The drop in the market the last week is attributed to the October jobs report http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/economy/karydakis_jobs.fortune/?postversion=2008110715 which is dismal beyond belief and shows that we are in for a very deep recession. I need to stay on top of financial info and I have not heard anything in the internals about an Obama influence in the downturn. I get my financial news directly from financial news sources. I suspect that many on this board get their 'news' from sites that spin actual results to their ideological preference. The deregulation which is responsible for much of the problems we are having in the mortgage,banking, insurance, housing, health care and even the auto industry is attributable to the deregulation, privatization and laissez- faire policies of the AynRand/Greenspan/Reagan conservative economic philosophy. True Clinton went along with some of it(keeping Greenspan) but basically we have been on a 30 year corporate binge which is waking up to one of the worst hangovers in history. The cure is to break from that addiction and have some responsible curbs on this distructive behavior. To me it said it all when Greenspan himself said that he was"shocked" that the wall streeters had not regulated themselves I was not shocked, greed is real. That philosophy has failed. Let the grown-ups and Obama get to work to clean it up.
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Here is an incredibly cool, awesome and inspiring Obama slideshow of pictures. http://flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/sets/72157608716313371/show/
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deKooningartist:
Obama has proposed effective tax increases of 20 percent or more in the two top income tax rates, phasing out the personal exemptions and all itemized deductions for top earners, as well as raising their tax rates. He wants a 33 percent increase in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends, an increase of 16 percent to 32 percent in the top payroll tax rate, reinstatement of the death tax with a 45 percent top rate, and a new payroll tax on employers estimated at 7 percent to help finance his health insurance plan.
ok, now I understand how the measures he announced can be financied... it had to be A LOT of increase in some taxes. It's basically New Deal reloaded. Roosevelt received accusation of comunism and socialism too, even from his party and from the high tribunals, history repeated.
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Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Hey Bill, do you count me as a Bush fan? I guess not. No, it's not Bush, the economy was already crap but that doesn't matter much to Wall Street... the Obama New Deal 2 is what matters them the most. And it doesn't matter if Wall Street falls really, the problem is the economy itself, the stock market it's only a game, it can fall 10% in a day when the economy just CAN'T change 10% in a day, it's only about mass subjective perception. Like a giant casino or so. The economy was already crap before the 1929 crack and the stock markets were high anyway, history repeated.
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Bill:
And a fair one. However, it's an issue that the Bush administration never thought to revisit, despite reversing other Clinton initiatives such as climate change and counter terrorism as soon as they could. Why revisit something that works in your favor?? Clinton did not fully back kyoto and neither did the republican senate at the time If people want to give Obama six months' grace before blaming everything that happens on him, that's fine, but they can't also blame Clinton for the economic crisis 7¾ years into the Bush administration. Heh. I don't think Barry has that much time to give. I am delighted that the "kids" came out, though I worry about their expectations in their "movement". The economic crisis as you call it has far reaching tenacles during several administrations here and changes that occurred elsewhere in my view. You're right to point out that there's plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the consequences of total deregulation. I'm just curious to see if there is just one thing that has happened in the last eight years the president has actually been responsible for. It is true though that the US has not incurred another terrorist attack since 2001. Whether circumstances or Bush's direct involvement is responsible is a thread for another day.
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mustangsally10:
Bill:
deKooningartist:
Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
So you're stating as absolute fact that the drop is directly attributable to the American people's foolish election of Obama and has nothing to do with all the other factors that have had it sliding since September? If so, I'd say that's a pretty big call considering recent volatility. The fact is that Obama is going to have to make some tough and perhaps painful decisions in cleaning up after an administration that thought it could cut taxes while increasing spending, having two wars and creating a socialised safety net for banks that made dumb decisions. If it means some people are going to get a lower dividend on their AT&T shares, then they can remind themselves to put Country First. The same realities would apply to a McCain presidency. I trust you would judge him as harshly?
The drop in the market the last week is attributed to the October jobs report http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/economy/karydakis_jobs.fortune/?postversion=2008110715 which is dismal beyond belief and shows that we are in for a very deep recession. I need to stay on top of financial info and I have not heard anything in the internals about an Obama influence in the downturn. I get my financial news directly from financial news sources. I suspect that many on this board get their 'news' from sites that spin actual results to their ideological preference. The deregulation which is responsible for much of the problems we are having in the mortgage,banking, insurance, housing, health care and even the auto industry is attributable to the deregulation, privatization and laissez- faire policies of the AynRand/Greenspan/Reagan conservative economic philosophy. True Clinton went along with some of it(keeping Greenspan) but basically we have been on a 30 year corporate binge which is waking up to one of the worst hangovers in history. The cure is to break from that addiction and have some responsible curbs on this distructive behavior. To me it said it all when Greenspan himself said that he was"shocked" that the wall streeters had not regulated themselves I was not shocked, greed is real. That philosophy has failed. Let the grown-ups and Obama get to work to clean it up.
Ah, dear me.....mustang Not sure I understand the "deregulation" of health care....?? And perhaps it should be pointed out that Paul Volcker while he was at the helm of the Federal Reserve jacked up interest rates (21% or so ) to combat inflation....he is, after all, a key Obama advisor. This downturn has been underway the past 2 1/2 years in my view. Personally, I do not believe that you can regulate or eliminate completely behavior.
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jaipur:
mustangsally10:
Bill:
deKooningartist:
Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
So you're stating as absolute fact that the drop is directly attributable to the American people's foolish election of Obama and has nothing to do with all the other factors that have had it sliding since September? If so, I'd say that's a pretty big call considering recent volatility. The fact is that Obama is going to have to make some tough and perhaps painful decisions in cleaning up after an administration that thought it could cut taxes while increasing spending, having two wars and creating a socialised safety net for banks that made dumb decisions. If it means some people are going to get a lower dividend on their AT&T shares, then they can remind themselves to put Country First. The same realities would apply to a McCain presidency. I trust you would judge him as harshly?
The drop in the market the last week is attributed to the October jobs report http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/economy/karydakis_jobs.fortune/?postversion=2008110715 which is dismal beyond belief and shows that we are in for a very deep recession. I need to stay on top of financial info and I have not heard anything in the internals about an Obama influence in the downturn. I get my financial news directly from financial news sources. I suspect that many on this board get their 'news' from sites that spin actual results to their ideological preference. The deregulation which is responsible for much of the problems we are having in the mortgage,banking, insurance, housing, health care and even the auto industry is attributable to the deregulation, privatization and laissez- faire policies of the AynRand/Greenspan/Reagan conservative economic philosophy. True Clinton went along with some of it(keeping Greenspan) but basically we have been on a 30 year corporate binge which is waking up to one of the worst hangovers in history. The cure is to break from that addiction and have some responsible curbs on this distructive behavior. To me it said it all when Greenspan himself said that he was"shocked" that the wall streeters had not regulated themselves I was not shocked, greed is real. That philosophy has failed. Let the grown-ups and Obama get to work to clean it up.
Ah, dear me.....mustang Not sure I understand the "deregulation" of health care....?? And perhaps it should be pointed out that Paul Volcker while he was at the helm of the Federal Reserve jacked up interest rates (21% or so ) to combat inflation....he is, after all, a key Obama advisor. This downturn has been underway the past 2 1/2 years in my view. Personally, I do not believe that you can regulate or eliminate completely behavior.
Hey Jaipur Your making it easy for me. By deregulation of health care I was referring to the health insurance industry which I think most would agree is screwing not just patients but US business and also the US government. Totally out of control. I am gratified to see the diversity of Obamas advisors on his economic advisory board. From Voulker to Buffett and even Reich. I hope they all together can help get us out of this mess. I think the downturn begin even more than 2 1/2 years ago judging from my financial statements. I agree, you can not totally regulate human behavior but, you can regulate it somewhat...enough to make a difference...that is why we have laws and that is why they are broken. Thanks to New Hampshire for voting for Obama That town you mentioned that is the first to vote in the US....Kuddoos to those great patriots who went out in the middle of the night in freezing weather to exercise their basic right to vote.
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Bill:
deKooningartist:
Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
So you're stating as absolute fact that the drop is directly attributable to the American people's foolish election of Obama and has nothing to do with all the other factors that have had it sliding since September? If so, I'd say that's a pretty big call considering recent volatility. The fact is that Obama is going to have to make some tough and perhaps painful decisions in cleaning up after an administration that thought it could cut taxes while increasing spending, having two wars and creating a socialised safety net for banks that made dumb decisions. If it means some people are going to get a lower dividend on their AT&T shares, then they can remind themselves to put Country First. The same realities would apply to a McCain presidency. I trust you would judge him as harshly?
_You are reading and making alot of assumptions into my post! My goodness. You are being so defensive :_wink: Re-read what I posted. How have I judged Obama harshly???? I simply stated that the reason (and I'm not the only one, this comes from the floor of the exchange) there was such a huge drop after the election was due to the increase of capital gains in 2009 per Obama's plan. People are going to take advantage of the current rates. That's just common sense. Any 'change' good or bad is going to effect the market. I never once stated or even eluded to any other issue effecting the market-I agree there are many. I was responding to why the drop after the election and one of the reasons why. Threat of tax increases, the market goes crazy. You can't expect to tell people their taxes will increase and they just sit back and watch it happen. No - they start dumping stock and re-evaluating their portfolios. That's what happens. And by the way, I totally agree with you. The spending in the last 8 years is beyond sickening and it came from both sides of the isle.
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mustangsally10:
jaipur:
mustangsally10:
Bill:
deKooningartist:
Bill:
This is most amusing. The stock market has been falling for months now as a direct result of the Bush administration's three-wise-monkeys approach to financial regulation, yet suddenly it's all Obama's fault. Have you all been asleep for the last two months? I would have thought that people would at least wait until he was inaugurated before blaming eight years worth of crap on him.
Acually no, I watch the market everyday. The comments did not pertain to the entire year but comments on the day after the election. Bill maybe you misinterpreted the post? This is pretty common knowledge on the stock market.
However, the one factor that drives the market absolutely crazy is uncertainty. The market cannot stand surprises and when there is the chance that something may change, it rattles the market.
http://stocks.about.com/od/whatmovesthemarket/a/Whatmovesmarket.htm When large investors hear of a capital gains increase, they're gonna take advantage of the current 2008 rates as opposed to the rate increases Obama proposed.
So you're stating as absolute fact that the drop is directly attributable to the American people's foolish election of Obama and has nothing to do with all the other factors that have had it sliding since September? If so, I'd say that's a pretty big call considering recent volatility. The fact is that Obama is going to have to make some tough and perhaps painful decisions in cleaning up after an administration that thought it could cut taxes while increasing spending, having two wars and creating a socialised safety net for banks that made dumb decisions. If it means some people are going to get a lower dividend on their AT&T shares, then they can remind themselves to put Country First. The same realities would apply to a McCain presidency. I trust you would judge him as harshly?
The drop in the market the last week is attributed to the October jobs report http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/07/news/economy/karydakis_jobs.fortune/?postversion=2008110715 which is dismal beyond belief and shows that we are in for a very deep recession. I need to stay on top of financial info and I have not heard anything in the internals about an Obama influence in the downturn. I get my financial news directly from financial news sources. I suspect that many on this board get their 'news' from sites that spin actual results to their ideological preference. The deregulation which is responsible for much of the problems we are having in the mortgage,banking, insurance, housing, health care and even the auto industry is attributable to the deregulation, privatization and laissez- faire policies of the AynRand/Greenspan/Reagan conservative economic philosophy. True Clinton went along with some of it(keeping Greenspan) but basically we have been on a 30 year corporate binge which is waking up to one of the worst hangovers in history. The cure is to break from that addiction and have some responsible curbs on this distructive behavior. To me it said it all when Greenspan himself said that he was"shocked" that the wall streeters had not regulated themselves I was not shocked, greed is real. That philosophy has failed. Let the grown-ups and Obama get to work to clean it up.
Ah, dear me.....mustang Not sure I understand the "deregulation" of health care....?? And perhaps it should be pointed out that Paul Volcker while he was at the helm of the Federal Reserve jacked up interest rates (21% or so ) to combat inflation....he is, after all, a key Obama advisor. This downturn has been underway the past 2 1/2 years in my view. Personally, I do not believe that you can regulate or eliminate completely behavior.
Hey Jaipur Your making it easy for me. Well, I try... By deregulation of health care I was referring to the health insurance industry which I think most would agree is screwing not just patients but US business and also the US government. Totally out of control. Ah, now I understand what you meant.....thanks I am gratified to see the diversity of Obamas advisors on his economic advisory board. From Voulker to Buffett and even Reich. I hope they all together can help get us out of this mess. I think the downturn begin even more than 2 1/2 years ago judging from my financial statements. For some industries, it's longer than that though the median seems to be 2 1/2 I agree, you can not totally regulate human behavior but, you can regulate it somewhat...enough to make a difference...that is why we have laws and that is why they are broken. Sounds like it's a matter of degrees for you....laws can only do so much..the rest is up to the people themselves. Thanks to New Hampshire for voting for Obama That town you mentioned that is the first to vote in the US....Kuddoos to those great patriots who went out in the middle of the night in freezing weather to exercise their basic right to vote. They do it every four years....very technological....they mark a paper ballot, place it in a box, then the clerk opens the box and counts them....
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Last time I looked, capital gains result from portfolios performing.....since they haven't been not sure if much is to be gained by raising taxes.....at least not right away.