The ..2012.... Political thread
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Matthew_Montoya:
jaipur:
I'd call it respecting and acknowledging their point of view...which McCain didn't bother to return. Debating isn't merely beating up your opponent or trying to outdo them verbally.....it's point, counterpoint....which is what Obama did, concede the point by agreeing with it, then counterpointing.
My criticism with this is that I think you're blurring the important distinction between respecting the person vs. respecting the idea. Both candidates should show civility and respect towards each other as people, but neither should be expected to respect or acknowledge ideas that they do not agree with or stand for. That isn't to say that they can't respect the person's right to have those opinions or that they don't have a tolerance for them (and let us not mix that up with acceptance), but that's very different. Also, it's a debate; by definition, they are not going to agree. Otherwise, it's not a debate. Yet what you seem to be inferring is that McCain should be throwing out pleasantries and showing respect and acknowledgment (which means he should admit the realization or validity) of something that, perhaps, he doesn't agree with. But even if he does: so what? Again, logically speaking, if Obama agrees with McCain on something, then McCain agrees with Obama. But obviously McCain doesn't agree with Obama, so either Obama is lying or he's not quite understanding McCain's position. In any event, as I said earlier, I fail to see why Obama should get brownie points for merely pointing out whatever agreement he feels he has with McCain and by you stating that a debate shouldn't be about verbal outdoings anyways, I fail to see our disagreement on this particular issue. But the main problem with this is you're arguing that debates are about point, counterpoint, and that Obama did that by conceding a point by agreeing with it, only to counterpoint. The problem with this is that, if you're saying that Obama is conceding a point by merely agreeing with it so he can make a counterpoint, you just painted Obama as a liar, not to mention confused and a flip flopper. In other words, it makes no sense for him to say that he agrees with something, only for him to proceed to counterpoint that. That would be insane. The point is: it's logically impossible to counterpoint something that you agree with. You can't agree and disagree with something at the same time. And if the person is only pretending to agree with it in the first place, then he is a liar. Perhaps some clarification is in order...
I'm not sure where this dysfunctionality might stem from : I have not , as you say, ""blurred the distinction between the person or the idea. " .....simply because an opponent recognizes a good point in his opponent's argument, doesn't mean he agrees with it. It also doesn't mean opponents can't find agreement on certain points either. There's no desception or lying on Obama's part in doing so despite your inclination to believe that there is because you seem to be unaware of the nuance between these two. Everything is not "black or white", "totally agree, or "totally disagree as many apparently would like to believe any topic ishould be.
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Andy_Shofar:
Yes, agreed However the heads of Fanny Mae & Freddy Mac were Democrats Those were places where former government employees went for a reward for their faithful service. And those lying skunks (on their corporations income statements) reported ficticious incomes and are threrfore personally responsible for life savings lost by investors & by millions/billions around the world And Barney Frank sought to stop investigations several times of Fanny Mae - he succeeded, and now all this :
Well, not to worry......his constituents in Newton aren't happy with him either....he's up for reelection Seems to me in regards to Fannie & Freddie, that the accounting firm who is charged with reviewing the books and offering an opinion of them are the true skunks.....imnsho
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The_Fool:
What I find very sad is that fair and balanced journalism has died. Many of the media should be wearing Obama shirts or Donkey pins / Democrat buttons on their clothes. I would be okay with it if they identified themselves as such - but they do not. (Trying to pretend they are fair). They have given Barack Obama a "free pass to the White House." (Turning their eyes and ears away from anything other than their agenda to get Barack into the White House). It is his alone to lose -- since he is getting all the help from a majority of the media. McCain - sometimes appears to want to throw it away -- or mess up somehow. He wants so much to be the nice guy reaching over the aisle -- that he "politically punches" his own party and doesn't pound the opponent's bad ideas. (From a post above -- they should be comparing Barack Obama to Jimmy Carter -- if he wins -- I have a feeling they will bring back the misery index. Characteristically -- following the play book -- he will have 3 years to blame the previous administration --even if the policies are his.) I see TAXES skyrocketing -- unemployment going up -- a recession .... etc but the media will be happy they did their part well .... the only good in all this that I see is that the guy who played "Robert" in Everybody Loves Raymond will stay in the USA. Whew that was close. For a nano second I thought he might leave the country
Here the misconseption. One, who ever take on this next term is going to have what Bush left. So what the Rep. left. When Clinton came in and turn around the goverment by cutting off welfare and making reform there they all claimed it was Bush and Reagan policy that he got credited for. Than when Bush and Rep destoryed the US. Its also Clinton problem. Fact Clinton left the US in the Black. Fact we could of continued that and moved foroward had Kerry gotten in. But because Clinton was having sex the Rep neo cons turned on him and voted in Bush 2 and now we have bail outs high taxs have to happen and it won't come from Washington it will come from local goverment. It will come in taxes on cell phone junk food entertainment car rental. That where the NEW taxes come from. So when they say no new taxed who cares those taxes are going to be coming. Why does the goverment not talk about the gas tax there collecting. Oil company made 600 billion what do you think your goverment is making ? Media needs change. We need to break up all tv and radio station and not allow 2 to be owned by the same person.
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Mccain should punch his own party.. Someone should. They should weep what they've done to this country, weep!
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jaipur:
Andy_Shofar:
Yes, agreed However the heads of Fanny Mae & Freddy Mac were Democrats Those were places where former government employees went for a reward for their faithful service. And those lying skunks (on their corporations income statements) reported ficticious incomes and are threrfore personally responsible for life savings lost by investors & by millions/billions around the world And Barney Frank sought to stop investigations several times of Fanny Mae - he succeeded, and now all this :
Well, not to worry......his constituents in Newton aren't happy with him either....he's up for reelection Seems to me in regards to Fannie & Freddie, that the accounting firm who is charged with reviewing the books and offering an opinion of them are the true skunks.....imnsho
That's true as well - like Enron - this is far worse than Enron. And like Enron, there were skunks on the inside. Could be another major accounting firm will be biting the dust ...
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Fannie Mae CEO calling Obama and the Dems the "Family" and "Conscience" of Fannie Mae
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I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
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mustangsally10:
I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
My post has nothing to do with loss or gain Just trying to share some other concerns which are very related to the current election It's not over (the election), till it's over No one has won or lost
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Andy_Shofar:
jaipur:
Andy_Shofar:
Yes, agreed However the heads of Fanny Mae & Freddy Mac were Democrats Those were places where former government employees went for a reward for their faithful service. And those lying skunks (on their corporations income statements) reported ficticious incomes and are threrfore personally responsible for life savings lost by investors & by millions/billions around the world And Barney Frank sought to stop investigations several times of Fanny Mae - he succeeded, and now all this :
Well, not to worry......his constituents in Newton aren't happy with him either....he's up for reelection Seems to me in regards to Fannie & Freddie, that the accounting firm who is charged with reviewing the books and offering an opinion of them are the true skunks.....imnsho
That's true as well - like Enron - this is far worse than Enron. And like Enron, there were skunks on the inside. Could be another major accounting firm will be biting the dust ...
Perhaps not....accounting irregularities have been going on all along: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/030623/23freddie.htm
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Andy_Shofar:
mustangsally10:
I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
My post has nothing to do with loss or gain Just trying to share some other concerns which are very related to the current election It's not over (the election), till it's over No one has won or lost
The sub-prime banking crisis has to do with the repub god of deregulation. Every reasonable person understands that now. Of course some corruption and incompetence was involved that is the repub way. The spinning of the truth is what is ugly.
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Andy_Shofar:
mustangsally10:
I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
My post has nothing to do with loss or gain Just trying to share some other concerns which are very related to the current election It's not over (the election), till it's over No one has won or lost
I have to say I have been hearing about this for a while and I'm not happy. I really wish I knew how to get a three party system on the ballot and paid equally so there none of this money issue stopping the third party from getting heard. We need so much reform and its just not happening . I think we heading for a Rome meltdown.
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Matthew_Montoya:
appletart2:
Palin is a good communicator when she memorized the script. However she can't think and talk. I think I could of answered her live interview questions better than she did.
The same could be said, and has been said, about Obama, (or as some call him: "Uh-bama") when he's not in front of a teleprompter. But, in regards to Palin, I disagree with this assertion. When she gave probably her best speech yet, at the RNC, it was without a prompter.
No your very mistaken she had prom tor in fact they showed it and showed her reading her speech, that was a big deal by some of the right wing news guys saying someone should of been fired for allowing that to be shown on TV like it was.t. I think it was done on purpose to show she was reading the words. How did you miss that?
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appletart2:
Matthew_Montoya:
appletart2:
Palin is a good communicator when she memorized the script. However she can't think and talk. I think I could of answered her live interview questions better than she did.
The same could be said, and has been said, about Obama, (or as some call him: "Uh-bama") when he's not in front of a teleprompter. But, in regards to Palin, I disagree with this assertion. When she gave probably her best speech yet, at the RNC, it was without a prompter.
No your very mistaken she had prom tor in fact they showed it and showed her reading her speech, that was a big deal by some of the right wing news guys saying someone should of been fired for allowing that to be shown on TV like it was.t. I think it was done on purpose to show she was reading the words. How did you miss that?
Yes??? Umhmm...
Barack Obama "Uh" Count -
allowing for no stated income was the beginning and than allowing adjustable mortgage to happen. Every time they do these kind of loans this happens. I amazed how this happen over and over. in the 80's 90's now again. This is like real estate 101 what not to do.
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appletart2:
No your very mistaken she had prom tor in fact they showed it and showed her reading her speech, that was a big deal by some of the right wing news guys saying someone should of been fired for allowing that to be shown on TV like it was.t. I think it was done on purpose to show she was reading the words. How did you miss that?
During the speech at the RNC, her teleprompter began to malfunction. http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/09/04/palins-teleprompter-troubles/ In any event... what's your point? Does reading from a teleprompter somehow make her less qualified?
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appletart2:
Andy_Shofar:
mustangsally10:
I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
My post has nothing to do with loss or gain Just trying to share some other concerns which are very related to the current election It's not over (the election), till it's over No one has won or lost
I have to say I have been hearing about this for a while and I'm not happy. I really wish I knew how to get a three party system on the ballot and paid equally so there none of this money issue stopping the third party from getting heard. We need so much reform and its just not happening . I think we heading for a Rome meltdown.
I also knew we would have a meltdown. This could have been stopped but the crooks were afraid of regulation. When Obama is elected there will be reform. It is ironic that the greed of the republicans has resulted in the nationalization of much of our banking system....and they are spinning that like crazy. Here is a treat "The Boss" at a free concert for Obama in Philadelphia yesterday.
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mustangsally10:
appletart2:
Andy_Shofar:
mustangsally10:
I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
My post has nothing to do with loss or gain Just trying to share some other concerns which are very related to the current election It's not over (the election), till it's over No one has won or lost
I have to say I have been hearing about this for a while and I'm not happy. I really wish I knew how to get a three party system on the ballot and paid equally so there none of this money issue stopping the third party from getting heard. We need so much reform and its just not happening . I think we heading for a Rome meltdown.
I also knew we would have a meltdown. This could have been stopped but the crooks were afraid of regulation. When Obama is elected there will be reform. It is ironic that the greed of the republicans has resulted in the nationalization of much of our banking system....and they are spinning that like crazy. Here is a treat "The Boss" at a free concert for Obama in Philadelphia yesterday.
And 4 minutes of shut up & sing ... I'm bored now ...
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Speaking of videos, here's an interesting one put together in support of Obama, recently: Ladies and gentleman, the Obama Youth!
Sort of reminded me of this: -
Andy_Shofar:
mustangsally10:
appletart2:
Andy_Shofar:
mustangsally10:
I figured it would be ugly watching the repubs lose :
My post has nothing to do with loss or gain Just trying to share some other concerns which are very related to the current election It's not over (the election), till it's over No one has won or lost
I have to say I have been hearing about this for a while and I'm not happy. I really wish I knew how to get a three party system on the ballot and paid equally so there none of this money issue stopping the third party from getting heard. We need so much reform and its just not happening . I think we heading for a Rome meltdown.
I also knew we would have a meltdown. This could have been stopped but the crooks were afraid of regulation. When Obama is elected there will be reform. It is ironic that the greed of the republicans has resulted in the nationalization of much of our banking system....and they are spinning that like crazy. Here is a treat "The Boss" at a free concert for Obama in Philadelphia yesterday.
And 4 minutes of shut up & sing ... I'm bored now ...
focus challenged? who would have thought It's a great song!
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The Economist has a cool global poll going on the US election Check it out http://www.economist.com/vote2008/