Set List critique
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audi:
I like that two-concert idea that U2 is considering, which somebody mentioned the other day.
I believe Steely Dan has been doing this for quite sometime now. I think Neil Young did something similar a few years back as well.
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I'd be curious to see the setlists for both of them. Cool info, Wixy.
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audi:
5th-beatle:
I bet the next setlist will include some "new" Wings songs.
That's always welcomed, but we've been there/done that*****. It's time for him to get reacquainted with his "Paul McCartney" albums.
That would be a great idea considering it is a Paul McCartney tour - lol. Sorry i could not resist !!
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LiveForever:
[..] Great post. I think you nailed it when you use the word insecurity. As unfathomable as it may be for most of us to think McCartney is insecure about anything, I think it's clear that he is...especially with regards to his competing legacy with the aforementioned John Lennon, hence all the Lennon anecdotes. This insecurity, in some respects, reared its head in the song Early Days where he feels the need to defend himself from those who "weren't where it was at." I think it is this insecurity that fuels a lot of what he does, from a touring and setlist perspective anyway.
Yes, I agree. It even speaks through his need to "get the record straight" about the Lennon/McCartney songwriting credits from time to time. You can't hear me complain about the original co-writer and co-performer playing his incomparable bass line to a song like 'Mr. Kite', even when - a presumption through a few sources - the main writer was his songwriting partner. Lennon and McCartney only disagreed (in public) on, if I remember correctly, who wrote what for 'Eleanor Rigby' and 'In My Life'. McCartney even mentions that himself from time to time. Regarding 'Mr. Kite', Lennon mentioned the song at least in two interviews (1972 and 1980), never talked in plural about it, and basically claimed it was completely his composition. (Now, his memory was far from flawless and he always liked to exaggerate and spin, but regarding writing credits he seemed pretty honest in post-Beatles interviews, McCartney even confirms that too by saying they barely disagreed). Pete Shotton (Lennon's best friend) talked in his book from 1983 about him visiting Lennon when the song was written, and stated it was a solo effort. Then in McCartney's half-autobiography 'Many Years From Now' in 1997, he remembers it himself very differently, how it was a total co-write, basically he's saying 50/50. That's not my gripe at all, I can't argue with someone who was there. But when he starts emphasizing in interviews how they wrote a song like that together, it just leaves a sour taste to me. From example, the Rolling Stone interview from around the 'New' release: "[..] 'Oh, John wrote that one.' I say, 'Wait a minute, what was that afternoon I spent with him, then, looking at this poster?' He happened to have a poster in his living room at home. I was out at his house, and we just got this idea, because the poster said 'Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite' ? and then we put in, you know, 'there will be a show tonight,' and then it was like, 'of course,'...The song just wrote itself. So, yeah, I was happy to kind of reclaim it as partially mine.'" I wouldn't dare doubting him - which would be exactly the point he's making, I wasn't born until 23 years after the fact, haha! - but it's again the tone. I think... Man, you're Paul McCartney, your status is cemented. Regardless of what the truth is, it's no good look.
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WixRocks!:
audi:
I like that two-concert idea that U2 is considering, which somebody mentioned the other day.
I believe Steely Dan has been doing this for quite sometime now. I think Neil Young did something similar a few years back as well.
Interesting: "Steely Dan will present two different concerts at Ravinia. On Aug. 12, the group will perform its milestone album Aja in its entirety along with select greatest hits. On Aug. 13, Steely Dan will perform songs requested via the internet plus select greatest hits. Help decide the set list for the August 13 show, by submitting your favorite Steely Dan song at..." https://www.ravinia.org/ShowDetails/?show=307
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nobodytoldme:
LiveForever:
[..] Great post. I think you nailed it when you use the word insecurity. As unfathomable as it may be for most of us to think McCartney is insecure about anything, I think it's clear that he is...especially with regards to his competing legacy with the aforementioned John Lennon, hence all the Lennon anecdotes. This insecurity, in some respects, reared its head in the song Early Days where he feels the need to defend himself from those who "weren't where it was at." I think it is this insecurity that fuels a lot of what he does, from a touring and setlist perspective anyway.
Yes, I agree. It even speaks through his need to "get the record straight" about the Lennon/McCartney songwriting credits from time to time. You can't hear me complain about the original co-writer and co-performer playing his incomparable bass line to a song like 'Mr. Kite', even when - a presumption through a few sources - the main writer was his songwriting partner. Lennon and McCartney only disagreed (in public) on, if I remember correctly, who wrote what for 'Eleanor Rigby' and 'In My Life'. McCartney even mentions that himself from time to time. Regarding 'Mr. Kite', Lennon mentioned the song at least in two interviews (1972 and 1980), never talked in plural about it, and basically claimed it was completely his composition. (Now, his memory was far from flawless and he always liked to exaggerate and spin, but regarding writing credits he seemed pretty honest in post-Beatles interviews, McCartney even confirms that too by saying they barely disagreed). Pete Shotton (Lennon's best friend) talked in his book from 1983 about him visiting Lennon when the song was written, and stated it was a solo effort. Then in McCartney's half-autobiography 'Many Years From Now' in 1997, he remembers it himself very differently, how it was a total co-write, basically he's saying 50/50. That's not my gripe at all, I can't argue with someone who was there. But when he starts emphasizing in interviews how they wrote a song like that together, it just leaves a sour taste to me. From example, the Rolling Stone interview from around the 'New' release: "[..] 'Oh, John wrote that one.' I say, 'Wait a minute, what was that afternoon I spent with him, then, looking at this poster?' He happened to have a poster in his living room at home. I was out at his house, and we just got this idea, because the poster said 'Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite' ? and then we put in, you know, 'there will be a show tonight,' and then it was like, 'of course,'...The song just wrote itself. So, yeah, I was happy to kind of reclaim it as partially mine.'" I wouldn't dare doubting him - which would be exactly the point he's making, I wasn't born until 23 years after the fact, haha! - but it's again the tone. I think... Man, you're Paul McCartney, your status is cemented. Regardless of what the truth is, it's no good look.
For the love of humanity, is he still hung up on all THAT? Geez.
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Well said, very well said. His status is cemented. I've read interviews that suggest it was Lennon who was insecure of McCartney. I just think the older he gets and faces his own mortality (not trying to be morbid here but I believe this happens to many of us we approach our 'sunset' years) he is trying to "set the record straight." There is no need, however, for him to do this.
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audi:
WixRocks!:
audi:
I like that two-concert idea that U2 is considering, which somebody mentioned the other day.
I believe Steely Dan has been doing this for quite sometime now. I think Neil Young did something similar a few years back as well.
Interesting: "Steely Dan will present two different concerts at Ravinia. On Aug. 12, the group will perform its milestone album Aja in its entirety along with select greatest hits. On Aug. 13, Steely Dan will perform songs requested via the internet plus select greatest hits. Help decide the set list for the August 13 show, by submitting your favorite Steely Dan song at..." https://www.ravinia.org/ShowDetails/?show=307
I've been saying forever that Paul should be doing this. Heck even duplicate the Beatles songs at the 2 shows...I'll go to both! But do the same as Steely Dan is...announce the shows will be 2 different shows. OMG...he'd have to memorize 2 sets of ad libs?
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yankeefan7:
audi:
5th-beatle:
I bet the next setlist will include some "new" Wings songs.
That's always welcomed, but we've been there/done that*****. It's time for him to get reacquainted with his "Paul McCartney" albums.
That would be a great idea considering it is a Paul McCartney tour - lol. Sorry i could not resist !!
One would think so.
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yankeefan7:
5th-beatle:
I bet the next setlist will include some "new" Wings songs.
That's always welcomed, but we've been there/done that*****. It's time for him to get reacquainted with his "Paul McCartney" albums. That would be a great idea considering it is a Paul McCartney tour - lol. Sorry i could not resist !!
This must say enough... Post-70's songs played live on tour by the current band: Here Today Ebony And Ivory** In Liverpool** Hope Of Deliverance** Cosmically Conscious** Calico Skies Flaming Pie Great Day** Vanilla Sky* Lonely Road* From A Lover To A Friend** Driving Rain* Your Loving Flame* Freedom* Fine Line*** Jenny Wren* English Tea* Follow Me* Dance Tonight Only Mama Knows That Was Me* House Of Wax* Nod Your Head* Sing The Changes Highway (I Want To) Come Home* My Valentine Save Us* On My Way To Work** Queenie Eye* New* Everybody Out There* *only on the corresponding tour **a one-off/benefit concert/television special ***only on the corresponding tour, as one-off after that Almost 13 years of touring with this band, not counting the 'New' songs yet, this leaves us with only 8 songs from 1980-2014 as what you could consider a regular feature on tour. He released around 250 songs officially since 1980, did around 350 gigs with the current tour band...
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That is really, really unfortunate. By the way: "From A Lover To Friend" was technically a benefit performance (The Concert For NYC). He never did it on the 2002/'03 tour.
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audi:
That is really, really unfortunate. By the way: "From A Lover To Friend" was technically a benefit performance (The Concert For NYC). He never did it on the 2002/'03 tour.
Whoops, of course! I always mix that one up. Thanks, edited for future references. (Hey, I did this by heart )
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LiveForever:
Well said, very well said. His status is cemented. I've read interviews that suggest it was Lennon who was insecure of McCartney. I just think the older he gets and faces his own mortality (not trying to be morbid here but I believe this happens to many of us we approach our 'sunset' years) he is trying to "set the record straight." There is no need, however, for him to do this.
I can't really blame him for speaking his mind of course, but why concentrate on the small ignorant "Lennon = rocker = authentic = The Beatles"-group? As if that will have any substance in history. It's not like he's some kind of underrated artist with a lost potential. And I'm glad that lately it seems there's more and more positiveness about McCartney's role in The Beatles. I'm pretty confident that without McCartney's force The Beatles would have fallen in a big black hole after they stopped touring, and would never made it to 'Abbey Road' or maybe even 'Sgt. Pepper'. Actually, what I considered as a very striking and very important comment about McCartney's influence, was thrown in very randomly in the Scorsese documentary on George Harrison's life - which ironically also suffered heavily from the Beatles-effect, 75% was concentrated on the first few years of his career, which we knew so much about already - by Ringo Starr, and I have to paraphrase, but he said something among the lines that without McCartney, The Beatles wouldn't have got as far as they did. And I think that comment has a bit more importance.
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I saw a quote the other day from George Martin, who said that John was the soul, George was the spirit, Paul was the heart, and Ringo was the drummer. Poor bloody Ringo. But it's probably true! Anyway, I think the "heart" in this case, as you pointed out, is what kept it alive for as long as it did.
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That Scorsese documentary on George Harrison was basically The Beatles Anthology + a few segments about the Dark Horse Tour and The Concert For Bangladesh. However, major points for Paul for letting people know that the main-riff for "And I Love Her" was 100% George's.
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LiveForever:
I saw a quote the other day from George Martin, who said that John was the soul, George was the spirit, Paul was the heart, and Ringo was the drummer. Poor bloody Ringo. But it's probably true! Anyway, I think the "heart" in this case, as you pointed out, is what kept it alive for as long as it did.
That was also from a Beatle bio-movie from the early '80s. It was supposedly said by Brian Epstein to John: That John was "the mind," and Paul was "the heart," etc.
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audi:
That Scorsese documentary on George Harrison was basically The Beatles Anthology + a few segments about the Dark Horse Tour and The Concert For Bangladesh. However, major points for Paul for letting people know that the main-riff for "And I Love Her" was 100% George's.
Ha, indeed, speaking of "credit where credit's due"!
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Paul told the "John had this poster and he & I wrote Mr. Kite from it" story at the Louisville show. Re: Steely Dan- they started doing those multiple night shows back in 2009, I think - I remember there was a series of 4 separate nights - 3 of them were album shows (Aja, Gaucho, and The Royal Scam) and the 4th night was the "internet request night." And Elvis Costello was doing these sorts of shows in 1986 - he did a 3-night stand in Chicago with the Attractions on one night, a completely different band on the second night, and the Spinning Songbook (requests) on night 3. So this kind of structure is not new and it can be clearly marketed so fans know what to expect. But it's also apparently not Paul's choice to do things that way. In 1990, he played 11 shows at Wembley Arena in London-- I went to all of them, and I am pretty sure that they ALL had exactly the same setlist.
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thenightfish:
Paul told the "John had this poster and he & I wrote Mr. Kite from it" story at the Louisville show. Re: Steely Dan- they started doing those multiple night shows back in 2009, I think - I remember there was a series of 4 separate nights - 3 of them were album shows (Aja, Gaucho, and The Royal Scam) and the 4th night was the "internet request night." And Elvis Costello was doing these sorts of shows in 1986 - he did a 3-night stand in Chicago with the Attractions on one night, a completely different band on the second night, and the Spinning Songbook (requests) on night 3. So this kind of structure is not new and it can be clearly marketed so fans know what to expect. But it's also apparently not Paul's choice to do things that way. In 1990, he played 11 shows at Wembley Arena in London-- I went to all of them, and I am pretty sure that they ALL had exactly the same setlist.
I think the pattern we're seeing here is that it's typically the likes of Steely Dan and Elvis Costello that do this. I'm not denying their musical ability whatsoever, but they're playing venues that are a small fraction of the size that Paul plays. I think it's much, much easier for these stadium acts to go out night after night and dish out the same thing to the greatest hits crowds.
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nobodytoldme:
LiveForever:
[..] Great post. I think you nailed it when you use the word insecurity. As unfathomable as it may be for most of us to think McCartney is insecure about anything, I think it's clear that he is...especially with regards to his competing legacy with the aforementioned John Lennon, hence all the Lennon anecdotes. This insecurity, in some respects, reared its head in the song Early Days where he feels the need to defend himself from those who "weren't where it was at." I think it is this insecurity that fuels a lot of what he does, from a touring and setlist perspective anyway.
Yes, I agree. It even speaks through his need to "get the record straight" about the Lennon/McCartney songwriting credits from time to time. You can't hear me complain about the original co-writer and co-performer playing his incomparable bass line to a song like 'Mr. Kite', even when - a presumption through a few sources - the main writer was his songwriting partner. Lennon and McCartney only disagreed (in public) on, if I remember correctly, who wrote what for 'Eleanor Rigby' and 'In My Life'. McCartney even mentions that himself from time to time. Regarding 'Mr. Kite', Lennon mentioned the song at least in two interviews (1972 and 1980), never talked in plural about it, and basically claimed it was completely his composition. (Now, his memory was far from flawless and he always liked to exaggerate and spin, but regarding writing credits he seemed pretty honest in post-Beatles interviews, McCartney even confirms that too by saying they barely disagreed). Pete Shotton (Lennon's best friend) talked in his book from 1983 about him visiting Lennon when the song was written, and stated it was a solo effort. Then in McCartney's half-autobiography 'Many Years From Now' in 1997, he remembers it himself very differently, how it was a total co-write, basically he's saying 50/50. That's not my gripe at all, I can't argue with someone who was there. But when he starts emphasizing in interviews how they wrote a song like that together, it just leaves a sour taste to me. From example, the Rolling Stone interview from around the 'New' release: "[..] 'Oh, John wrote that one.' I say, 'Wait a minute, what was that afternoon I spent with him, then, looking at this poster?' He happened to have a poster in his living room at home. I was out at his house, and we just got this idea, because the poster said 'Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite' ? and then we put in, you know, 'there will be a show tonight,' and then it was like, 'of course,'...The song just wrote itself. So, yeah, I was happy to kind of reclaim it as partially mine.'" I wouldn't dare doubting him - which would be exactly the point he's making, I wasn't born until 23 years after the fact, haha! - but it's again the tone. I think... Man, you're Paul McCartney, your status is cemented. Regardless of what the truth is, it's no good look.
I doubt him. This is really petty. John isn't even around to counter or defend. So be it. Ok, Paul. You re-claim Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite. So what? I s anyone going to re-write Beatles history over that? This is the guy who wrote Yesterday, Here There and Everywhere, Sgt. Pepper's, Let It Be, Hey Jude, Long And Winding Road, Maybe I'm Amazed, My Love, Helter Skelter, etc. and he wants it known he also helped write Mr. Kite!! Whatever. As has already been stated, this guy's legacy as a Beatle was sealed in 1970. Why he feels a need to keep sealing it is beyond me. I also reject Mr. Martin's comment that Ringo was the "drummer." Ringo was the essence of the Beatles. NOTHING says Beatles like Ringo circa 1965. He was ESSENTIAL to catapulting them to world wide stardom. Or should I say, Starrdom!