Paul - GRAMMY 2013
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I was surprised to hear about Paul's win. I was offline for a little bit and found out recently. Maybe Paul should stick to not attending for any new releases as well.
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kapoo:
Michelley:
Bruce M.:
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
Well I agree with you on the second sentence. But you're absolutely wrong on the first. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who appreciates Smile could not also appreciate Ram. Both albums are in the same creative vein. Actually it was Pet Sounds -- NOT Smile -- that broke a lot of ground production wise and musically. Brian Wilson developed his unique studio production methods by the time he made Pet Sounds, he perfected them on Pet Sounds, and just continued them on Smile. Good Vibrations, for example, is considered part of Smile but was recorded during the Pet Sounds period (with lyrics by Mike Love). And it was Pet Sounds that people said was the height of songwriting (and it should be noted that Brian Wilson didn't write any of the lyrics on either album, they were written by several lyricists). People were expecting great things in the wake of Pet Sounds. But Smile ended up being this half-finished album that was unreleased for decades and drove Brian to the brink, and, so, developed an aura and mystery about it as the "most famous unreleased album ever." Myth counts for a lot in rock and roll. Meanwhile, Ram had attracted a different "myth." It had been ripped apart by critics back then for reasons entirely unrelated to the music and entirely related to critics being pissed off at Paul for suing his bandmates. So over the years, Smile's reputation got a bit overinflated and I think Pet Sounds gradually became a bit under-rated, and Ram was really under-rated. Some people can't let go of those myths. Fortunately, others can. And last year, we saw critic after critic praise the Ram reissue, give it stellar reviews, and place it in its rightful place among great classic albums. Is Smile better than Ram? I don't know: Is chocolate ice cream better than chocolate chip? That's just a personal choice. They're both genius albums. I do think Brian Wilson deserved the Grammy -- believe it or not, I read that he's only won TWO in his life. So it was nice to see him honored. But he was awarded that Grammy as much for sentimental reasons as for the music. Ram would have deserved that Grammy, too -- not saying that Ram is better than Smile. Just that it was equally deserving.
It's an interesting comparison of albums. RAM is great no question, with the more accessible songs. SMiLE has an element of being demented, sort of like early Pink Floyd, Pipers at the Gate or something, but less English. That Syd Barrett tune Bike reminds me a little of the vibe. I don't think RAM ever gets as Beautiful as Surf's Up, nor does it go for the various harmonics that Brain does on Smile. and having Van Dyke's slanted lyrics only make the songs stronger IMO. Smile is a bit schitzo, and acid drenched, but its so beautiful and inventive. No one else was thinking along those line in 1967. Even the Beatles were behind Brian's curve at the time. The peoples were writing rock, even on Pepper. Believe it or not the effort that would have had to have gone into Smile would have been greater than Pepper even. Peppers got the more catchy and conventional (believe it or not) songs on it. Smile loses to Pepper imo, but does beat RAM. RAM for me never gets as Beautiful as Surf's Up. But Paul rocks it on Monkberry, harder than Wilson rocks it on say Hero's and Villians. But man Heros and Villians is an amazing song/production and meter. SMiLE is just less bound to happen ever again I would say in terms of the music that was made. The Beach Boys filled out their albums for years by making Smile session songs the corner stones of their subsequent albums if you actually look at it. Wile Honey, Smiley Smile, Surf's Up, a bunch of their albums where the songs with the highest musical acumen are songs from the smile sessions. I once started a thread here a long time ago, so long that it might not even exists anymore, but I posed the question whether or not the Beatles themselves ever acheived the studio heights that BW did on Good Vibrations, linking all the fantastic bits of writing. Thats a tough call for me. On Abbey Road they did probably what thought to be the seminal job of that, but BRian's is beautiful and it was 3 yrs earlier. He just couldn't make decisions on running order... a lot like Syd Barrett, he was at a point where he drove himself nuts. I remember in the same thread I said that Paul and John were lucky to have each other to write and experiment with. There's a lot more pressure and self doubt I think when an artist feels like they're on their own with their ground breaking material.
On of my all time favorite concert moments was hearing "Surf's Up" live at Carnegie Hall.
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Nothing on RAM comes close to Surfs Up or Cabinessense IMO, and Brian deserved the Grammy more than Paul IMO not just for the albums but because Paul has already received millions of plaudits from fans and critics whereas Brian who is responsible for one of the greatest back-catalogs of music in the 60's alone gets nowhere near that recognition for his efforts except by select music critics and those Beach Boy fans who know about the band than just there greatest hits. His confidence about his talents is also consequently much lower so his reaction was genuinely one of humbleness whereas for Paul it's just another award to chuck on the pile. The Beach Boys were to me second only to the Beatles from 1964-1971 and for a period in the mid 60's were just as good if not better IMO! The amount of talent that Brian had is just incredible. Before he was even 25 in 1967 Brian Wilson had already worked on and released 11 albums in just 5 years as a member of The Beach Boys not including the unreleased for 44 years SMiLE album sessions, at the same time as writing most of the songs he also produced, played bass, and of course harmonized and sang lead on many songs with his falsetto voice. Surfin' Safari (1962) Surfin' USA (1963) Surfer Girl (1963) Little Deuce Coupe (1963) Shut Down Volume 2 (1964) All Summer Long (1964) The Beach Boys' Christmas Album (1964) Today! (1965) Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) (1965) Beach Boys' Party! (1965) Pet Sounds (1966) +The SMiLE album sessions (1967, released 2011) He had written with Mike Love, Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks and Roger Christian. Some of the songs written and recorded in this time by Brian with/without his collaborators include: Surfin' Surfin' Safari 409 Surfin' USA Shut Down Surfer Girl Little Deuce Coupe Catch A Wave In My Room Be True To Your School Little Saint Nick Fun, Fun, Fun I Get Around Don't Worry Baby All Summer Long Little Honda Wendy Girls On The Beach When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) Dance, Dance, Dance The Warmth Of The Sun Please Let Me Wonder Help Me Rhonda Kiss Me, Baby She Knows Me Too Well California Girls Let Him Run Wild Girl Don't Tell Me The Little Girl I Once Knew You're So Good To Me Wouldn't It Be Nice You Still Believe In Me God Only Knows I Just Wasn't Made For These Times Caroline No Good Vibrations Our Prayer Heroes And Villains Cabin Essence Wonderful Surf?s Up Vega-Tables Wind Chimes
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Michelley:
Awesoman:
But let's be honest here: with all due respect, I think you're simply looking at this from a personal preference perspective whereas I'm looking at it from an objective perspective.
I'm not sure you could be more patronizing. Yes, "your" approach is "objective."
I'm pretty sure I could be more patronizing, human. (Yes, I'm kidding.) And yes, I am looking at this objectively. Both albums are great and have their individual strengths. But if I were asked which one was more ambitious and complex an album, that would be SMiLE, eight days a week.
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MaccaBeatles:
Nothing on RAM comes close to Surfs Up or Cabinessense IMO, and Brian deserved the Grammy more than Paul IMO not just for the albums but because Paul has already received millions of plaudits from fans and critics whereas Brian who is responsible for one of the greatest back-catalogs of music in the 60's alone gets nowhere near that recognition for his efforts except by select music critics and those Beach Boy fans who know about the band than just there greatest hits. His confidence about his talents is also consequently much lower so his reaction was genuinely one of humbleness whereas for Paul it's just another award to chuck on the pile. The Beach Boys were to me second only to the Beatles from 1964-1971 and for a period in the mid 60's were just as good if not better IMO! The amount of talent that Brian had is just incredible. Before he was even 25 in 1967 Brian Wilson had already worked on and released 11 albums in just 5 years as a member of The Beach Boys not including the unreleased for 44 years SMiLE album sessions, at the same time as writing most of the songs he also produced, played bass, and of course harmonized and sang lead on many songs with his falsetto voice. Surfin' Safari (1962) Surfin' USA (1963) Surfer Girl (1963) Little Deuce Coupe (1963) Shut Down Volume 2 (1964) All Summer Long (1964) The Beach Boys' Christmas Album (1964) Today! (1965) Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) (1965) Beach Boys' Party! (1965) Pet Sounds (1966) +The SMiLE album sessions (1967, released 2011) He had written with Mike Love, Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks and Roger Christian. Some of the songs written and recorded in this time by Brian with/without his collaborators include: Surfin' Surfin' Safari 409 Surfin' USA Shut Down Surfer Girl Little Deuce Coupe Catch A Wave In My Room Be True To Your School Little Saint Nick Fun, Fun, Fun I Get Around Don't Worry Baby All Summer Long Little Honda Wendy Girls On The Beach When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) Dance, Dance, Dance The Warmth Of The Sun Please Let Me Wonder Help Me Rhonda Kiss Me, Baby She Knows Me Too Well California Girls Let Him Run Wild Girl Don't Tell Me The Little Girl I Once Knew You're So Good To Me Wouldn't It Be Nice You Still Believe In Me God Only Knows I Just Wasn't Made For These Times Caroline No Good Vibrations Our Prayer Heroes And Villains Cabin Essence Wonderful Surf?s Up Vega-Tables Wind Chimes
I am sending your comments to my brother who is a major Brian Wilson fan. IMO - I think Brian Wislon is appreciated more in UK than US.
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Awesoman:
Michelley:
Awesoman:
But let's be honest here: with all due respect, I think you're simply looking at this from a personal preference perspective whereas I'm looking at it from an objective perspective.
I'm not sure you could be more patronizing. Yes, "your" approach is "objective."
I'm pretty sure I could be more patronizing, human. (Yes, I'm kidding.) And yes, I am looking at this objectively. Both albums are great and have their individual strengths. But if I were asked which one was more ambitious and complex an album, that would be SMiLE, eight days a week.
No, actually you're not looking at it objectively. You're looking at it through your own biases and preferences -- as we all do.
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Although I do prefer RAM, I am glad SMILE had the win... I wasn't aware that there were so few Grammy's awarded for such a tremendous body of work by the Beach Boys. My favourite Beach Boys album is Holland, which actually didn't have much input from Brian Wilson. The album evokes a Misty Big Sur, love the feeling of the whole album. I had to mention such a great album, as I haven't seen anyone else do that yet and it's worth a listen. A really great vid to see some Beach Boys in the studio with some heavenly harmonies...
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Congratulations Paul, on winning the Grammy for Kisses On Bottom. It is a wonderful album. I'm so happy for you!
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Awesoman:
And yes, I am looking at this objectively. Both albums are great and have their individual strengths. But if I were asked which one was more ambitious and complex an album, that would be SMiLE, eight days a week.
Which is why, when Brian heard Sgt. Pepper for the first time as he was working on Smile, he never finished it. Pepper destroyed his confidence as a songwriter. Paul with his encouragement after he got to know Brian, was one of the people who helped him get that confidence back so he could finish it 40 years later. It's a wonderful piece, musically inventive and beautiful.
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beatlesfanrandy:
Awesoman:
And yes, I am looking at this objectively. Both albums are great and have their individual strengths. But if I were asked which one was more ambitious and complex an album, that would be SMiLE, eight days a week.
Which is why, when Brian heard Sgt. Pepper for the first time as he was working on Smile, he never finished it. Pepper destroyed his confidence as a songwriter. Paul with his encouragement after he got to know Brian, was one of the people who helped him get that confidence back so he could finish it 40 years later. It's a wonderful piece, musically inventive and beautiful.
Interesting to hear about Pepper destroying Brian's confidence. Is that because the Beatles wrote more of their own lyrics, than on Smile, as someone else posted? Or because Sgt. Pepper was so incredibly innovative for it's time, compared to Smile (which really was more of the same sound, from the Beach Boys) although it does have more very beautiful harmonies and some very beautiful songs. Songs like Good Vibrations, Heroes and Villains, Cool Cool Water, Our Prayer all very lush and melodic numbers. I'm glad Smile finally saw the light of day!! Didn't know Paul encouraged him on releasing it. Thanks for sharing that.