MEAT EATERS-SHAME ON YOU
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hey_kittay:
I hope that if people decide to be meat eaters they at least know what animal they are eating. Maybe if meat eaters killed their own meal each time with their own hands, instead of opening a cellophane package and popping it in the oven or microwave, they would know what they are eating and how much suffering the animal endured. HORSE MEAT FOUND IN BURGERS! http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-burger-king-horse-meat-20130124,0,6288077.story *and think about it...that is just the places we KNOW that bovine meat is mixed with other animals. What about the places you buy your meat you really don't know? :
Just for the record, I've had horse meat before and see no issue with it (though it was being cooked for a dog).
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martinput:
. Global warming and ecological impact - a relatively new strand - making the case that excess breeding of meat animals causes excess release of global warming gases. And the ecological argument that using cereal and grass crops that could feed the planet directly to produce meat is needlessly uneconomic and harmful to the planet. .
Actually, Martin, it's not that new of a stand. John Robbins wrote about it nearly 23 years ago with a book Diet For a New America. It's been around a while.
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Kathryn O:
UP until others chimed in, I didnt' see anything sweet or intelligent laid out here. Just righteousness.
the 'sweet and intelligent' was referring to Sir Paul. you really have to learn to read properly before posting your bitter retorts.. read it again "if you say (and as i also said 100 times) that ==>Sir Paul is more intelligent/kinder, etc.<== then sure, =>but why then is THAT SWEET AND INTELLIGENT set of LAID OUT FACTS (BY SIR PAUL) also not being paid attention to and imbibed<==? what is the excuse then to not follow HIS (Sir Paul's) kind and intelligent appeal to stop killing and eating the animals?? " something wrong with speaking out for what is righteous? just because you chose to not live it doesn't mean that it should not be spoken about. killing animals is wrong and therefore it is righteous to speak on their defence and against their being murdered. one should stand up for what is right. you're just opposing for opposing sake and because you were too weak to stay away from meat when you were vegan and have a convenient excuse about how vegans are, etc. as an escape ticket when faced with the GUILT of what you pay for when you consume innocent animals. *hits the nail on the head* ouch you can still stop eating animals and deal with those guilt issues you know.. just do the right thing and that bitterness at those who stick to doing the right thing will fade away.. try it..
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Kathryn O:
hey_kittay:
I hope that if people decide to be meat eaters they at least know what animal they are eating. Maybe if meat eaters killed their own meal each time with their own hands, instead of opening a cellophane package and popping it in the oven or microwave, they would know what they are eating and how much suffering the animal endured. HORSE MEAT FOUND IN BURGERS! http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-burger-king-horse-meat-20130124,0,6288077.story *and think about it...that is just the places we KNOW that bovine meat is mixed with other animals. What about the places you buy your meat you really don't know? :
Just for the record, I've had horse meat before and see no issue with it (though it was being cooked for a dog).
For the record: I have eaten horse meat before. In Costa Rica at a French restaurant. I had no idea what I was eating at the time, but it was very tasty. I was at a table with many people and so did not ask what it was as it seemed at the time I would not have 'manners.' But later at a bar where I was offered a sea turtle egg, I heartedly protested, as I could see what that was. Anyway I feel personally, just because someone has done something in the past, they can change their habits if they feel uncomfortable with their choices as I did in becoming a vegetarian, and I am very happy as I respect all living creatures. As the types of people who ENJOY killing any being, be it an animal or a human, well doesn't that say alot about their personality? They must be sociopathic/psychopathic. I am not referring to people who kill animals out of necessity and do NOT ENJOY taking a life, and/or causing unneeded suffering. And addressing the vegetable situation: I do believe all living organisms have a consciousness on some level. I do eat plants it is true. I do buy my fruits and veggies at a farmers market when I can, but yes I do buy fruits and veggies at the grocery store. Maybe I need to work harder on this subject. *Note to all meat eaters: Please do not blame staying a meat eater on a hard line attitude by vegetarians/vegans. It is your choice and that is it. So if you are a meat eater that is what you have chosen and what you identify with, don't blame others for your choices.*
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hey_kittay:
*Note to all meat eaters: Please do not blame staying a meat eater on a hard line attitude by vegetarians/vegans. It is your choice and that is it. So if you are a meat eater that is what you have chosen and what you identify with, don't blame others for your choices.*
AMEN just as i've been saying on this thread, the convenient excuse is MY apparently unsweet and abrasive direct telling it as it is posts, but still they fail to account for why a sweet and unabrasive exposure by Sir Paul of the very Same facts and very Same appeal by the same sweet and unabrasive Sir Paul is NOT listened to and imbibed. what in that case is the excuse for not listening?
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simplyrahil:
. the 'sweet and intelligent' was referring to Sir Paul. you really have to learn to read properly before posting your bitter retorts.. read it again "if you say (and as i also said 100 times) that ==>Sir Paul is more intelligent/kinder, etc.<== then sure, =>but why then is THAT SWEET AND INTELLIGENT set of LAID OUT FACTS (BY SIR PAUL) also not being paid attention to and imbibed<==? what is the excuse then to not follow HIS (Sir Paul's) kind and intelligent appeal to stop killing and eating the animals?? " something wrong with speaking out for what is righteous? just because you chose to not live it doesn't mean that it should not be spoken about. killing animals is wrong and therefore it is righteous to speak on their defence and against their being murdered. one should stand up for what is right. you're just opposing for opposing sake and because you were too weak to stay away from meat when you were vegan and have a convenient excuse about how vegans are, etc. as an escape ticket when faced with the GUILT of what you pay for when you consume innocent animals. *hits the nail on the head* ouch you can still stop eating animals and deal with those guilt issues you know.. just do the right thing and that bitterness at those who stick to doing the right thing will fade away.. try it..
actually, I don't read most of your post. the bitterness is too much and I've known too many "angry veggies" to know that the bitterness never goes away with them. they're always angry about something. also, I am immune to guilt and have none. I was abused by religious people from a young age and became immune to guilt as a result. No guilt so don't put emotions on me that aren't. Paul's message wasn't always so kind. He used to display graphic images before his concerts back in the early 90s and it actually cost him tickets. In Pontiac, MI, people were so repulsed they stayed away in droves and they actually GAVE tickets away to get rid of them. (Ah....those were the days....) Even the original MFM launching had negative issues with attitude. but Paul at least learned that the hard sell doesn't work. It only encourages a natural rebellion.
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simplyrahil:
hey_kittay:
*Note to all meat eaters: Please do not blame staying a meat eater on a hard line attitude by vegetarians/vegans. It is your choice and that is it. So if you are a meat eater that is what you have chosen and what you identify with, don't blame others for your choices.*
AMEN just as i've been saying on this thread, the convenient excuse is MY apparently unsweet and abrasive direct telling it as it is posts, but still they fail to account for why a sweet and unabrasive exposure by Sir Paul of the very Same facts and very Same appeal by the same sweet and unabrasive Sir Paul is NOT listened to and imbibed. what in that case is the excuse for not listening?
As stated before, Paul's been abrasive in the past and paid a dear price for it at times. and I'm telling it as it is too, honey.
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Kathryn O:
simplyrahil:
hey_kittay:
*Note to all meat eaters: Please do not blame staying a meat eater on a hard line attitude by vegetarians/vegans. It is your choice and that is it. So if you are a meat eater that is what you have chosen and what you identify with, don't blame others for your choices.*
AMEN just as i've been saying on this thread, the convenient excuse is MY apparently unsweet and abrasive direct telling it as it is posts, but still they fail to account for why a sweet and unabrasive exposure by Sir Paul of the very Same facts and very Same appeal by the same sweet and unabrasive Sir Paul is NOT listened to and imbibed. what in that case is the excuse for not listening?
As stated before, Paul's been abrasive in the past and paid a dear price for it at times. and I'm telling it as it is too, honey.
Am I "Honey?" Well if that is so then I guess not only veggies/vegans can have attitudes, eh? peace & love! *really just kidding with you Kathryn, I am not being catty...okay?*
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Oh, I get your kidding and I take it good naturedly. But seriously, there is only one group in the enter history of the human race that even comes close to true respect for all life. According to Sagan, it's the Jain of India. I first learned about them in an early Star Trek novel called Devilworld and was amazed to learn they are real. It was an incredible introduction. Google them and learn more about them. and then go an emulate them where one can. They also believe in respect for fellow humans as well as plant life too. I'm still laughing at the irony that an ex-veg has converted more people into trying the idea of vegan food and meatless meals partially then a militant veg. Now here's an issue that no vegetarian likes to bring up: The Blood Type Diet. This is a diet based on eating certain groups of foods based on the blood types. The most common type of blood type in the world is O and according to the diet, they'd never survive without red meat. Vegetarians don't like the idea of this diet. but it has some bases in fact. (that still doesn't mean they need to eat it every day though and still need vegetables) Me? I'm a type A. perfectly suited to a whole grain -veggie diet. Which is the bulk of my food. (and I shouldn't eat those mangos and bell pepppers but I shouldn't because Mangos aren't local and bell peppers are nightshades and cause inflamation).
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i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
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I became an organic vegan 25 years ago for over 6 years for environmental reasons. What I find among the self-righteousness that I loathed wasn't just among vegans vs meat eaters but also among vegetarians who went that way for their personal ethics snubbing their noses at other vegetarians who became that way for other reasons (such as environmental or health concerns or even in some cases, religious reasons relating to following a strict diet). I don't get the nose snubbing. and it does nothing to enhance the movement.
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steblap:
i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
Here's is why I am skeptical of anybody who uses compassion as their basis for any defense: For years, I head the Pro-Life movement use the exact same articles that vegetarians use to deny me using birth control so I don't become a breeder. Not kidding. Cross out the word animal and put, "baby" in it's place in any argument in this thread (From the ones allowed to stay up) and you get the same propaganda. And we're not even talking about conception happening which is a whole entity of ideas and philosphies in and of itself. even a barrier method such as a condom is denying an unborn life a chance to live. Then, I got to know more about the so-called pro-lifers. They deny all birth control. They deny homosexuality, a group that doesn't have unwanted pregnancies. They deny sexual acts that don't lead to pregnancy and they deny adults becoming educated about such acts. (I've been to the classes where they've raided and disrupted). They claim they are doing this out of their compassion for the unborn. But they also are pro-gun, pro-death sentence and execution, as well as denying women any health care of any type because women have the potential to have abortions. (No funding for centers that treat fibroids or endometriosis because 10% of their services provide abortions. So all women are denied health care). I won't even go into how the same group denies living children welfare to survive. that part I don't get at all. As a result of this twisted and sick logic that is really causing havoc on too many women, I realized many who claim to love life are really just anti-sex. Period. and I've been leary of any movement that claims it's about compassion since then. Including the vegetarians that use the exact same arguments word for word.
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Kathryn O:
steblap:
i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
Here's is why I am skeptical of anybody who uses compassion as their basis for any defense: For years, I head the Pro-Life movement use the exact same articles that vegetarians use to deny me using birth control so I don't become a breeder. Not kidding. Cross out the word animal and put, "baby" in it's place in any argument in this thread (From the ones allowed to stay up) and you get the same propaganda. And we're not even talking about conception happening which is a whole entity of ideas and philosphies in and of itself. even a barrier method such as a condom is denying an unborn life a chance to live. Then, I got to know more about the so-called pro-lifers. They deny all birth control. They deny homosexuality, a group that doesn't have unwanted pregnancies. They deny sexual acts that don't lead to pregnancy and they deny adults becoming educated about such acts. (I've been to the classes where they've raided and disrupted). They claim they are doing this out of their compassion for the unborn. But they also are pro-gun, pro-death sentence and execution, as well as denying women any health care of any type because women have the potential to have abortions. (No funding for centers that treat fibroids or endometriosis because 10% of their services provide abortions. So all women are denied health care). I won't even go into how the same group denies living children welfare to survive. that part I don't get at all. As a result of this twisted and sick logic that is really causing havoc on too many women, I realized many who claim to love life are really just anti-sex. Period. and I've been leary of any movement that claims it's about compassion since then. Including the vegetarians that use the exact same arguments word for word.
I am O+ blood type. I take lots of supplements as I have stated and as long as I do so I feel fine. As far as being compassionate and anti-sex, I definitely do not fit that mold. I am compassionate about the life of all beings and a sex nut when I am with the right person. I don't have any children, so I guess I am not a breeder either. I will look further into the India thing you were talking about in an earlier post Kathryn, sounds interesting.
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all your bitterness and defensiveness aside Kathryn, if Sir Paul's exposé 'glass walls' didn't affect you enough to keep being at least vegetarian, if not vegan, then there's something really wrong inside you. the only reason necessary to stop funding the killing of animals/stop eating them is their suffering and murder. it doesn't matter your repeated self-aggrandizing about 'how many you have made interested in going vege' but about what you and all animal-eaters are causing, contributing to and perpetuating. your repeated 'used to be vegan' serves no purpose for the sake of the animals whatsoever. it doesn't matter what you 'used to do' but what you are doing right now and will do for the animals. since you failed to continue being a vegan, then you resumed contributing to the pain, suffering and murder of animals and will continue to do so unless you change back to being vegan. every excuse you try to make, whether it be your already stated excuses about other vegans or whomever, is weak and just exposes your own lack of determination to do what is right and to stick to doing what is for the benefit of the innocent animals who are killed because people do not want to stop eating them even when they are aware of the facts and the horror. you brought up the Jains also and proposed that people should try to follow what they can of them. what's then your excuse for not following? some Jain's attitude also is your excuse? the only reason you feel you are some 'champion' on this thread with your obnoxious attitude is because i am outnumbered by those who eat animals on here. there is nothing you can say, no matter how insultively, snidely or bitterly as in your retorts thus far that can really clear you from being part of the shame that is paying for the murder of animals. EXCEPT if you take heed of Sir Paul's appeal and stop eating them.
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Kathryn O:
steblap:
i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
Here's is why I am skeptical of anybody who uses compassion as their basis for any defense: For years, I head the Pro-Life movement use the exact same articles that vegetarians use to deny me using birth control so I don't become a breeder. Not kidding. Cross out the word animal and put, "baby" in it's place in any argument in this thread (From the ones allowed to stay up) and you get the same propaganda. And we're not even talking about conception happening which is a whole entity of ideas and philosphies in and of itself. even a barrier method such as a condom is denying an unborn life a chance to live. Then, I got to know more about the so-called pro-lifers. They deny all birth control. They deny homosexuality, a group that doesn't have unwanted pregnancies. They deny sexual acts that don't lead to pregnancy and they deny adults becoming educated about such acts. (I've been to the classes where they've raided and disrupted). They claim they are doing this out of their compassion for the unborn. But they also are pro-gun, pro-death sentence and execution, as well as denying women any health care of any type because women have the potential to have abortions. (No funding for centers that treat fibroids or endometriosis because 10% of their services provide abortions. So all women are denied health care). I won't even go into how the same group denies living children welfare to survive. that part I don't get at all. As a result of this twisted and sick logic that is really causing havoc on too many women, I realized many who claim to love life are really just anti-sex. Period. and I've been leary of any movement that claims it's about compassion since then. Including the vegetarians that use the exact same arguments word for word.
You are right when you say compassion can be used to justify each own belief but being honest makes a big difference. When someone uses compassion to choose for somoene's sufference over someone else's then he's not being honest, he's just sinking into deep water. If you belive that a baby should live despite, say, his mother's health or will, you are causeing sufference anyway. I won't discuss the ethical reasons one can have because it would just be out of topic here. I just strongly belive that no one should ever be entitled to decide about anyone else's sufference. But when it comes to vegetarian compassion i don't see who could ever be hurt or annoyed or threatened. I would never defend a stag against a lion. I would just point out that on the side of meat-eaters there's no other argument than their own pleasure. No suffering or whatever else. So my/our choicefull it's pretty peaceful and harmless. Ok, now we could start a thread about vegetable welfare As to some vegans' attitude you mentioned in the other post, i completely agree with you that some can be very snob with people who don't share their beliefs. This unpleasant attitude is just the right way to put all the matter in a bad light, it's just so silly
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simplyrahil:
all your bitterness and defensiveness aside Kathryn, if Sir Paul's exposé 'glass walls' didn't affect you enough to keep being at least vegetarian, if not vegan, then there's something really wrong inside you. .
This is more of the type of BS as to what I hate in vegetarians. SOMETHING WRONG INSIDE OF ME? Remember, one finger pointed at me, three are pointed back at you. First of all, you are the one who has been displaying bitterness and defensiveness from the beginning. Dude, take a look in the mirror long enough to see it. Secondly, I'd say there is clearly something wrong inside of you. You simply parrot catch-phrases rather then speak from your own heart. (Granted, I think English may not be your first language so I can cut some slack that part until you never repeated one single original thought or phrase). Dude, that's the sign of a cult-like fanatic. No matter how noble your cause, there is an inherent danger in that type of mentality about anything. and saying such nasty things as you have such as there is something wrong with me will only push me further from your cause more and more and even be reflected when someone who can word it in a better manner comes along. That poor person will have to break down the barrier you made. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a basic primal instinct. Unless you find nature to be flawed as well.
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excuses, excuses, excuses listen to Sir Paul and stop eating the animals
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We're watching the dialogue out here. Watching the carnist loser try to make her case (which is basically "I don't give a F*CK about animals and the people who do care PISS ME OFF!"). I'd be embarrassed if I were her, telling someone from Trinidad that English is probably their second language. Ignorance is as ignorance does, and for the ignorant, ad hominem attacks are the only way to think you've won an argument - if all else fails. I hate people like that, so I guess we're even. Too stupid to engage in an argument based on the actual points of the argument, too dumb to admit that they are the problem. Too arrogant to realize that they are the ones with the false sense of superiority, and truly not worthy of the two minutes it took to type this - but I needed to express that Rahil is not alone on the site and you, my dear, are definitely not lording anything over the vegans here. We have found the path, the one that the Beatles wrote about many moons ago. And the one that Paul advocates. And you're simply angry and jealous about it. Now, get off your high horse. You're welcome.
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I'm new here, but have been following this topic with great interest... A lot of people on here have been saying that the aggressive approaches from vegans, along with the more graphic animal rights photos and videos are not effective and drive people away from trying veganism... Some studies have been done showing that to be inaccurate, and there are ongoing programs at this time that are also showing that to be wrong. Many people I have talked with, both close friends and simply acquaintances have specifically told me that even though they were angry, uncomfortable and upset at first when they saw those types of photos/videos on mine and others facebooks, twitters, Tumblrs, etc., etc... those are exactly the things that made them reconsider what they were supporting and condoning in the first place. Yes, maybe not the first week, or the first month they saw them, but it did start having an effect and many, many of those people are now in the process of going vegan...or at the very least, vegetarian, with the intent to go vegan as soon as they can. So the more graphic info and tactics that show the horror of the meat/dairy/poultry industries may not work on everyone, but has its place, and is incredibly effective on many, many people ... Sadly, those of you who say you, "would go on being meat-eaters BECAUSE someone like you (vegans) accuses me."....or that you would actually switch from vegan to being a meat eater again because you don't like what you view as "typical vegan behavior"...are missing the point entirely... Which is...the killing of animals for food has caused a catastrophic effect on this planet and every life form on it. We have humans starving and suffering with no clean water......while food animals are fed well and water is wasted in alarming amounts on their care and raising...just to afford the meat eaters the chance to continue eating what they are "accustomed to" and refuse to do without.... You are taking a group of people...vegans...who try to live compassionately and with care and deep concern... towards the most innocent, but horrifically abused and tortured group of beings...animals...and then turning those vegans into your personal kicking posts. Why? Because basically, it really bothers you that you find it impossible to stop what you are doing and look at the bigger picture...which is the killing of innocent animals for absolutely no good reason at all...and the effect it has on the world at large... You can try to convince people all you want that you love meat, and have no problem that animals die in horrific ways to provide you that 10 minutes of taste...entire lives wiped out simply because of selfishness... You can try, but it honestly makes no sense... It is the highest insult to animals that people refuse to see what they are doing, and choose instead to just keep doing it...even though it is so obviously wrong... And...it is the highest insult to humans who are starving, while grain is stockpiled and fed to food animals.... Now, I'll stop for a bit and wait to be called angry...extreme...loudmouthed...rude...righteousness, etc. And then...I will ask you to read back through my post and point out any of that...because it is not there...it will just be your "perception" of what you want to see.... to excuse your behavior, not mine.
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Hi all and welcome to the message board. The debate clearly is close to Paul's heart as he just now is making a major relaunch of the families involvement with Linda McCartney Foods, Mary McCartney's book called Food etc If you read back a few pages or so you'll see the moderator and admin team made a few advisory posts calling that the debate focusses on the issues and various attitudes and avoids personalising the debate with attacks and insults on the individual contributors to the debate. And we would ask that future posts are kept to the topic as well, likewise avoiding insults to individuals. We want the debate to flow freely without any call for our moderation services, but should that ambition fail, please contact the Mod team and we will review post content and act if needed. Welcome once more. Martin