The ..2012.... Political thread
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Erica:
JennyLP:
Only time will tell......
this seems to be the mantra...now and at least for the near future... and I, for one, hope the future tells a positive story...a step (or two...or three) in the right direction, because that is definitely what we need...to get our economy out of the proverbial toilet and I would also like all the naysayers and cynics that I have been hearing over the last several weeks to be proven WRONG!!! I am so "done" with the doom and gloom that is coming out of the mouths of close-minded people because of this election and where it "seemed" to be headed...it will take TIME for anyone to even begin to fix what has happened over the last 8 years...everyone should try to have a positive attitude/outlook about the future instead of being so damned PESSIMISTIC!
Thank you
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Sorry lass , we cant be optimistic here we have had 11 years and at least a couple more to go.
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Matthew_Montoya:
Bill:
Boy, you're taking this hard aren't you Matt?
Not particularly. I'm not happy about it, but I was expecting him to win.
Bill:
Barack Obama was not elected leader of the free world. He was elected president of the United States. There is no leader of the free world. Get used to it.
Well, of course, not officially. But when the U.S., whether one likes it or not, is the country that the world looks to, you are the leader of the free world and that's a term that has been used by both conservatives and liberals for decades and it's always referred to the U.S. President. But even if you choose not to accept that term, I think we can both agree that the U.S. President is certainly the most powerful leader in the world. Or has the most influence. However you choose to phrase it. I don't say it to come off as arrogant, but rather a fact of life that has shown itself throughout history. Get used to it.
Bill:
As for popularity, it's called democracy. Obama was the more popular candidate, that's why he won. Again, get used to it.
The way you used "popularity" can be taken in more than one way, though, in that sentence. If by popularity you mean something one likes, it's not clear Obama is popular. If by popularity you mean number of votes, then yes, in a democracy usually the popular candidate wins, but not always, technically speaking we have a Republic not a Democracy; who wins the electoral college wins. But this is all besides the point. I never disputed Obama winning the popular vote.
Bill:
I know I haven't been here for a while Matt, but you really need to refer back to some of the things you've said previously. Whatever happened to respecting the office? Whatever happened to "my" president, right or wrong? Or does that only count if the incumbant is someone you approve of, regardless of what the majority of your compatriots think? I'm just trying to clarify.
The problem is, Bill, you've failed to address my point. Nowhere have I said or even implied that Obama wouldn't be my President. Unlike others, I have no plans to leave the country and I accept that Barack Obama is the 44th President of the United States. I strongly disagree with his policies and have several issues with him, and a lack of trust, but he's the President and therefore is my President; I respect that and truly do hope his term is a successful one, which I've already said. I don't wish him failure; our country can't afford that and, to me, it would simply be un-American to wish such a thing on our leader. However, respecting the office and having criticism for the President aren't mutually exclusive. But all of this has nothing to do with what I actually said. I simply responded to your point that world will be rejoicing. You brought up world opinion, and that's when I asked my question whether popularity = good, which you didn't address.
Matt, you're arguing semantics. The world does look up to America when America is worth looking up to. Until today, there wasn't a lot of that going on. I've made my prediction about a new level of friendliness towards the US from the international community and time will tell if I'm right. The truth is, America needs the international community as much as the international community needs America. Having a leader free from the stains of the Bush administration is going to help you a lot whether you agree with his policies or not. So to address the more zen-like aspect of your question, being popular is naturally going to mean more co-operation, and that's something you're going to need at a time like this. Popularity is an effect, not a cause. If someone is popular, there must be a reason for that popularity. Many countries see in Obama, a man they can work with. Whether that's a good thing or not, I will leave up to you. After all, he's your president-elect.
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first off...what a night huh?, I mean Jesus...rarely am I moved by anything outside music and art and the like....but it was a seriously heavy thing that happened with Obama becoming the president elect. I mean, I seem to be so preoccupied with the larger perspective on things- realizing that as humans we're such a minute phenomena in the scheme of a baffling large and apparent timeless universe- that what we do is not so much meaningless, but just very arbitrary really. But aside from that- if I put a microscope up to my short lifetime...it is in fact a big deal. A big deal to witness a true paradigm shift. I can't help but think of things like...my racist and right wing grandfather whom, in 2000 said to me "we're gonna get OUR team back in the white house, and set things straight" when speaking of george w. bush. And I think of when he died in 2006...so too did his generation , their ignorance, their scars of lies they were told by fearful men. But that's just part of the story for me. I don't really give a shit that Obama is black. I give a shit that he's a man who is realizing his full potential, that he is unafraid to embrace life and not succumb to laziness and fear like so many do- myself included. He demands full respect for that...and it is special to see that the majority of people in this country caught a glimpse of that. Then of course, I come back down to the harsh reality of it all as well. Just tonight- before the dude was even reached 270, I was in a hotel bar to have a drink, chill, and enjoy the moment. I had some drunk next to me ask me who I voted for...I said Obama. His very next question was "So do you think they'll take him out?". I get a little sharp pain in my gut that makes me simply give him a shit eating grin and I say nothing. Then to me left, some redneck responds "If he's elected...he won't make it past 2 years". So there it is...clowns to the left of me...jokers to the right- stuck in the middle with you. I guess it was just a little play the universe cast me in to test me. It did anger and disappoint me for a second, but then quickly strengthened my respect for Obama....he's been dealing with shit like this ( and will be dealing with this insanity) and he STILL went for it...and GOT it. Then in his acceptance for President Elect, he gives this amazing speech that spoke the TRUTH- the truth is - it ain't about Him...it's about us- he is leading by example- to be responsible- to work harder for what you want - to meet our own potential. Will everybody get it???....and is it so hard to do?? Or will we fail ourselves again?...with toxic thoughts of assassination....and racist jokes..unable to understand we're all ONE. Barack Obama, as of the time of this writing has indeed taken on the archetype of the Golden Child- but he isn't a Shaman, he isn't the redeemer of souls- he is simply a reminder- a signpost that points in the correct direction for all of us. Can people actually accept this?- or cling to their financial brackets, their color of skin, their illusions of "identity" ( republican, democrat, rich, poor,new yorker, texan, old , young, hipster, yuppie, etc etc) and their precious personal miseries; "precious" because misery is all they know- so they believe that is what's REAL, when it isn't. What's real...is people WANT hope. Why else do millions of people every weekend go pay money to see films with predictable happy endings?- and guess what?- it doesn't have to be fiction...it can actually apply to our real lives. No it won't be smooth and easy- just as Barack said tonight- but it can actually happen. Now Utopia won't happen and he's not promising that...but giving help to people in poverty, offering education, and getting the hell out of Iraq is a good start.
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19RamOnTheRun71:
first off...what a night huh?, I mean Jesus...rarely am I moved by anything outside music and art and the like....but it was a seriously heavy thing that happened with Obama becoming the president elect. I mean, I seem to be so preoccupied with the larger perspective on things- realizing that as humans we're such a minute phenomena in the scheme of a baffling large and apparent timeless universe- that what we do is not so much meaningless, but just very arbitrary really. But aside from that- if I put a microscope up to my short lifetime...it is in fact a big deal. A big deal to witness a true paradigm shift. I can't help but think of things like...my racist and right wing grandfather whom, in 2000 said to me "we're gonna get OUR team back in the white house, and set things straight" when speaking of george w. bush. And I think of when he died in 2006...so too did his generation , their ignorance, their scars of lies they were told by fearful men. But that's just part of the story for me. I don't really give a s**t that Obama is black. I give a s**t that he's a man who is realizing his full potential, that he is unafraid to embrace life and not succumb to laziness and fear like so many do- myself included. He demands full respect for that...and it is special to see that the majority of people in this country caught a glimpse of that. Then of course, I come back down to the harsh reality of it all as well. Just tonight- before the dude was even reached 270, I was in a hotel bar to have a drink, chill, and enjoy the moment. I had some drunk next to me ask me who I voted for...I said Obama. His very next question was "So do you think they'll take him out?". I get a little sharp pain in my gut that makes me simply give him a s**t eating grin and I say nothing. Then to me left, some redneck responds "If he's elected...he won't make it past 2 years". So there it is...clowns to the left of me...jokers to the right- stuck in the middle with you. I guess it was just a little play the universe cast me in to test me. It did anger and disappoint me for a second, but then quickly strengthened my respect for Obama....he's been dealing with s**t like this ( and will be dealing with this insanity) and he STILL went for it...and GOT it. Then in his acceptance for President Elect, he gives this amazing speech that spoke the TRUTH- the truth is - it ain't about Him...it's about us- he is leading by example- to be responsible- to work harder for what you want - to meet our own potential. Will everybody get it???....and is it so hard to do?? Or will we fail ourselves again?...with toxic thoughts of assassination....and racist jokes..unable to understand we're all ONE. Barack Obama, as of the time of this writing has indeed taken on the archetype of the Golden Child- but he isn't a Shaman, he isn't the redeemer of souls- he is simply a reminder- a signpost that points in the correct direction for all of us. Can people actually accept this?- or cling to their financial brackets, their color of skin, their illusions of "identity" ( republican, democrat, rich, poor,new yorker, texan, old , young, hipster, yuppie, etc etc) and their precious personal miseries; "precious" because misery is all they know- so they believe that is what's REAL, when it isn't. What's real...is people WANT hope. Why else do millions of people every weekend go pay money to see films with predictable happy endings?- and guess what?- it doesn't have to be fiction...it can actually apply to our real lives. No it won't be smooth and easy- just as Barack said tonight- but it can actually happen. Now Utopia won't happen and he's not promising that...but giving help to people in poverty, offering education, and getting the hell out of Iraq is a good start.
Great post here! In speaking with friends this evening the one word that kept coming up was "hope." We all felt like we got some of that back. Now I know that some people here, and you all know who you are - I may not be here very often but I have not forgotten, will say that hope is lost. For them, I am truly sorry. I also have to say that now they will know what a good deal of us have had to deal with and have felt these last 8 years. The hopelessness that this land was going to hell. We fought back and now hope is back with us for now.
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....... .......just fabulous!! This was quite simply America's last real chance to get it right.....without this man the US could have faded into obscurity, the kind of obscurity that descends upon every empire eventually. Now in these difficult times the American people have chosen the only path open to them. For their childrens and grandchidrens sakes......for the future of thier country......for the future of the free world this was the only choice. Barack's speech was spine tingling, even those who have other political affiliations and have doubts about the man can't have failed to have been moved and fired by his words. A mixture of Martin Luther King and JFK, he has the chance now to unite a country and lead it forwards. I know words are cheap sometimes. We had our own inspirational leader elected over 10 years ago, we stayed up all night to watch him be called to office and celebrated the dispatching of a sleazy rabble from high office only to have our hopes dashed. Blair was, like his mentor Thatcher, a calamity for the UK. I only pray that this new dawn for the United States is a real one. The only cloud on the horizon are the groups and individuals so angry and insulted by the sight of a black American President that they take action against him. I hope and pray that Obama can stay safe. For all our sakes he needs to live up to his promises. For all our sakes whatever your political allegiance in the US join together and show the world that America truly is a country of dreams, opportunities and a million other good things.
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Congratulations America with your new elected president! I'm not American but I was rooting for him anyway.
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Thatcher was not a calamity for the UK, unfortunately she did not have a supine party like Blair did and had to put up with the idiot Lawson as a Chancellor and his failed policy of currency rate manipulation. This was aimed at keeping the pound to the 3.15 dmark level. The basic effect of that was to stall and indeed nip in the bud of any economic recovery in manufacturing ( especially important in the north) by keeping interests rate too high. Lawson and Brown eventually got their way and we went into ERM, yes folks dear Gordon supported the link to Dmark and the ERM fiasco. I do find it odd when Britons of supposed left wing persuasion say they would vote for a democrat, when they are too bloody ring wing for me. The ridiculous hysteria shown by people on this thread about socialism and Marxism is really too much. In many ways before yesterdays historic vote the United States was not a capitalist country. More like socialism for the rich. Even as late as June, I did not think that he would win, though the summer I thought it would be close. Then came along Wall Street to win it for Obama. The interesting thing is the reports of the turnout at 70-75% which if true is a colossal jump, that and the popular vote is what I am most interested in seeing later today.
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Thatcher WAS a calamity for the UK. The biggest mistake this country ever made.
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No, that was joining the EEC.
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david mitchelson:
Thatcher WAS a calamity for the UK. The biggest mistake this country ever made.
Too right...the country will NEVER recover IMO from that bitch. The lack of spirit , manners and optimism shows through the nation ....greed , selfishness and ignorance have taken over....and the evils that go with it. Having said that bLiar and co have just carried on where she left off. Where is our Obama ?
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What a sad day for America and our forefathers and citizens who fought for our country. Obama will be the worst President yet. He is just as naive as most of his voters. Most of the votes this year came from people under age 29. This is the group that grew up with hip hop and Britney Spears. The group that grew up "coddled" also known as Generation "Me" where their parents ship them from place to place and never let them out on their own. Well, they've got their President. Putting aside Obama as Hitler.. I believe he will be more like Hoover. (look it up if you don't know about Hoover) Obama ran a popularity contest and won. America has greatly disappointed me.
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BandontheRun:
What a sad day for America and our forefathers and citizens who fought for our country. Obama will be the worst President yet. He is just as naive as most of his voters. Most of the votes this year came from people under age 29. This is the group that grew up with hip hop and Britney Spears. The group that grew up "coddled" also known as Generation "Me" where their parents ship them from place to place and never let them out on their own. Well, they've got their President. Putting aside Obama as Hitler.. I believe he will be more like Hoover. (look it up if you don't know about Hoover) Obama ran a popularity contest and won. America has greatly disappointed me.
Unbelievable You are getting rid of a complete idiot whos helped the biggest financial crash in history. Killed and injured millions of people in illegal wars based on lies. Made the US the most unpopular country in the world......and hes thick as pig shit. In is place you are getting a decent , intelligent eloquent man who is loved by most of the world........have you people got a deathwish ?
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BandontheRun:
What a sad day for America and our forefathers and citizens who fought for our country. Obama will be the worst President yet. He is just as naive as most of his voters. Most of the votes this year came from people under age 29. This is the group that grew up with hip hop and Britney Spears.
They're also the generation that are being killed and maimed in Iraq so show some respect.
BandontheRun:
America has greatly disappointed me.
Love it or leave it.
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BandontheRun:
What a sad day for America and our forefathers and citizens who fought for our country. Obama will be the worst President yet. He is just as naive as most of his voters. Most of the votes this year came from people under age 29. This is the group that grew up with hip hop and Britney Spears. The group that grew up "coddled" also known as Generation "Me" where their parents ship them from place to place and never let them out on their own. Well, they've got their President. Putting aside Obama as Hitler.. I believe he will be more like Hoover. (look it up if you don't know about Hoover) Obama ran a popularity contest and won. America has greatly disappointed me.
Hi! I just woke up and feelin sad. I'll be a hypocrite if I tell you I'm happy--- but we just have to move on and go with the flow! May God bless you and America.
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I think Obama will be a great president. I think maybe the lesson here with Bush adminstration and this one is a Karmic one. Perhaps we as a nation are being taught to look beyond the amount of melanin in the skin as to what the person's ability is and judge based on the merit of the individual as they present them selves. I look at society now it seems as if we are going through what is kNown as Group karma. love doris.
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seems to me that some people dont want brand new start
Maybe they want more of the 'good old days' ARMAGEDDON DAYS (are here again) They're 5 miles high As the crow flies Leavin' vapour trails Across a blood red sky Movin' in from the East Towards the West With balaclava helmets Over their heads YES! But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming Honey, you've got another thing coming If he ever finds out who's hijacked his name He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave Islam is rising The Christians mobilising The world is on it's elbows and knees It's forgotten the message And worships the creeds "It's War" she cried "It's War" she cried "This is War!" Drop your possessions All you simple folk You will fight them on the beaches in your underclothes You will thank the good lord For raising the Union Jack You'll watch the ships sail out of harbour And the bodies come floating back Watch the ships sail out of harbour And the bodies come floating back If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today He'd be gunned down cold by the C.I.A. Oh, the lights that now burn brightest Behind stained glass Will cast the darkest shadows Upon the human heart But God didn't build himself that throne God doesn't live in Israel or Rome God doesn't belong to the Yankee dollar God doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah God doesn't even go to church And God won't send us down to Allah to burn God will remind us what we already know That the human race is about to reap what it's sown Islam is rising The Christians mobilising The world is on it's elbows and knees It's forgotten the message And worships the creeds The world is on it's elbows and knees It's forgotten the message And worships the creeds Armageddon days are here again Armageddon days are here again Armageddon days are here again Armageddon Days Are HERE!!! Half wits -
Bill:
Matt, you're arguing semantics. The world does look up to America when America is worth looking up to. Until today, there wasn't a lot of that going on. I've made my prediction about a new level of friendliness towards the US from the international community and time will tell if I'm right. The truth is, America needs the international community as much as the international community needs America. Having a leader free from the stains of the Bush administration is going to help you a lot whether you agree with his policies or not. So to address the more zen-like aspect of your question, being popular is naturally going to mean more co-operation, and that's something you're going to need at a time like this. Popularity is an effect, not a cause. If someone is popular, there must be a reason for that popularity. Many countries see in Obama, a man they can work with. Whether that's a good thing or not, I will leave up to you. After all, he's your president-elect.
I think we're on different wavelengths here, so I think I need to be a bit more clear. Of course popularity is an effect, I never implied otherwise. But from what you're saying, it does sound like you think it's a cause: a cause of friendliness toward the U.S. And I think we need to keep in mind the fact that world hostility towards the U.S. isn't something that is or has been unique to the Bush Administration. That has been going on long before Bush took office in 2001 and, despite some of the savior qualities some people have attached to Obama, I don't see that entirely changing. But if we do want to go down that path, then we also need to note the fact that, since Bush has been in office, Europe has elected its most conservative leaders in decades. So that point about popularity is a bit debatable. This isn't to say that Bush is popular amongst those on the left, hardly, but the left hardly encompasses the world. But this is where I think we're going off in different directions. You're talking in terms of descriptive, while I am speaking in terms of prescriptive. Yeah, of course we can talk about the relationship between world opinion and policy all day (descriptive), but that's quite a difference from saying what it SHOULD be (prescriptive). In other words: leaving aside what you mean by "need," I never said that the U.S doesn't "need" the international community. My point is that just because Obama won to the delight of at least some of the world, and therefore more respect or "goodwill" might be thrown towards the U.S. tomorrow, that alone doesn't justify its goodness (or conversely, the badness) of the decision. I don't say this because my guy lost, (I'd say the same thing) but my point, and what I asked you on, is that popularity does not always equal goodness; the heard is not always right or good. So when someone says "Well, you should be happy about Obama winning, because now the U.S. is respected in the world again!," it means nothing to me. Perhaps, indeed, when one is smilin', "the whole world smiles at you," but that ultimately tells me nothing on the solutions to the problems this country does face, for again, popularity or goodwill towards it does not always point towards what's right or wrong. Therefore, considering world opinion, or popularity in general, is not always correct, it shouldn't be the barometer of whether policy or election decisions are good or not. That's all I'm trying to say; not that I don't welcome goodwill from other countries, of course I do, but just merely that when it comes to policies and decisions, the top priority for the U.S. should be to make policies based on what will help improve the U.S. and the policies should be based on how effective they can be; not appease in order to do well in some arbitrary popularity contest in which other countries in the world approve (or disapprove) of them.
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moggy:
david mitchelson:
Thatcher WAS a calamity for the UK. The biggest mistake this country ever made.
Too right...the country will NEVER recover IMO from that bitch. The lack of spirit , manners and optimism shows through the nation ....greed , selfishness and ignorance have taken over....and the evils that go with it. Having said that bLiar and co have just carried on where she left off. Where is our Obama ?
That is your opinion where the hell were you in the 70's.
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moggy:
seems to me that some people dont want brand new start
Maybe they want more of the 'good old days'So what your post implies is that either we accept and embrace Obama's policies or approve of the current problems in America. Isn't that quite the dichotomy... If you define "brand new start" as the President wanting to "fundamentally change" America then, no, I guess not. I'm much more interested in restoring it in areas that need fixing, such as the economy and other important issues that are going on in the U.S. If President-elect Obama can do that, great; I'm highly doubtful, but I truly hope he does. But that's a far cry from completely changing it or giving it this "brand new start." Other than some of the problems it faces, I'm quite happy with the U.S. as it is. And I sure as hell don't want this "New World Order," if your link is any indication...