How did the Beatles challenge themselves?
-
Please give examples of how the Beatles challenged themselves. In a way, all artists challenge themselves because they are making something out of nothing, over and over again in fact. But I'm specifically talking about thinking outside the box, producing something out of left field... the totally unexpected. It's not as simple as saying that Paul knew that Julian Lennon was going through a tough time so he wrote a song for him. This would just be called inspiration in my opinion. I'll give two examples of what I mean. George wrote the following about how he wrote "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" (per Wikipedia): "I wrote "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" at my mother's house in Warrington. I was thinking about the Chinese I Ching, the Book of Changes... The Eastern concept is that whatever happens is all meant to be, and that there's no such thing as coincidence - every little item that's going down has a purpose. "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" was a simple study based on that theory. I decided to write a song based on the first thing I saw upon opening any book - as it would be relative to that moment, at that time. I picked up a book at random, opened it, saw 'gently weeps', then laid the book down again and started the song." Paul says this about "Helter Skelter", a key influence in the early development of heavy metal(per Wikipedia): On 20 November 1968, two days before the release of The Beatles, McCartney gave Radio Luxembourg an exclusive interview, in which he commented on several of the album's songs. Speaking of "Helter Skelter", he said: "Umm, that came about just 'cause I'd read a review of a record which said, 'and this group really got us wild, there's echo on everything, they're screaming their heads off.' And I just remember thinking, 'Oh, it'd be great to do one. Pity they've done it. Must be great ? really screaming record.' And then I heard their record and it was quite straight, and it was very sort of sophisticated. It wasn't rough and screaming and tape echo at all. So I thought, 'Oh well, we'll do one like that, then.' And I had this song called "Helter Skelter," which is just a ridiculous song. So we did it like that, 'cuz I like noise." Can you think of other examples? Please give background detail if you can. And not one word about the first line in "Rocky Raccoon"!
-
Certainly "A Day In The Life" and the way they combined these two song ideas of John and Paul's and made an epic out of it. At first they had no idea they would be putting that orchestral buildup in the song, so that's why you hear the counting (by Mal Evans) and then the ringing alarm clock marked the point where the unknown interlude would end. They considered other options (like the four of them humming) for the very end, but brilliantly came up with the crashing piano note.
-
By making a conscious effort not to repeat themselves, they were never satisfied by following a formula to make a hit. They knew they could write a hit for themselves or anybody. But beyond that, they were constantly trying new sounds, finding new instruments, changing existing production standards. They pushed their producer George Martin to the limits and beyond. Such as Lennon telling him he wanted his voice on Tomorrow Never Knows to sound like "the Dalai Lama singing from a mountaintop". The best thing was that they never sounded phony or tiring. First generation fans waited with excitement to hear what new sounds The Beatles would present to us on their next album or single. You can hear the musical progression in every single one. From Love Me Do to The End, it was an amazing eight years.
-
Excellent examples, Fave and Randy. Randy, would you say they really challenged themselves in the days of their early hits? In what way? The Beatles were constantly redefining themselves it seems. It must have been tough coming up with new ways of doing things. I think if I were them I would have been tempted to put many different single thoughts on pieces of paper in a fish bowl and then pulling out three just to see what song I could have come up with. "Just a harmonica and a piano with occasional a cappella" for example.
-
Paul always points to the example of "From Me To You," where the "middle eight" has minor chords. At the time, that was a leap forward for them!
-
beatlesfanrandy:
By making a conscious effort not to repeat themselves, they were never satisfied by following a formula to make a hit. They knew they could write a hit for themselves or anybody. But beyond that, they were constantly trying new sounds, finding new instruments, changing existing production standards. They pushed their producer George Martin to the limits and beyond. Such as Lennon telling him he wanted his voice on Tomorrow Never Knows to sound like "the Dalai Lama singing from a mountaintop". The best thing was that they never sounded phony or tiring. First generation fans waited with excitement to hear what new sounds The Beatles would present to us on their next album or single. You can hear the musical progression in every single one. From Love Me Do to The End, it was an amazing eight years.
In "Many Years from Now", Paul says John & he always tried to write songs that were always different than those that came out before. They always tried to be innovative. That is very hard hard to do as they could have easily become "formulatic", especially with the success they had. That's what made them so great, imo. The book is a great read, btw.
-
So would you say that this ability to constantly reinvent themselves is unique to The Beatles...or just unique in the sense that they did it successfully for such a long time? Did any other group do this in a similar fashion? The Stones? Moody Blues? If we were speaking about a singer and not a band doing this would we talking about Michael Jackson?
-
Scarlett14:
Excellent examples, Fave and Randy. Randy, would you say they really challenged themselves in the days of their early hits? In what way? The Beatles were constantly redefining themselves it seems. It must have been tough coming up with new ways of doing things. I think if I were them I would have been tempted to put many different single thoughts on pieces of paper in a fish bowl and then pulling out three just to see what song I could have come up with. "Just a harmonica and a piano with occasional a cappella" for example.
When George Martin presented them with How Do You Do It as a possible follow-up to Love Me Do, they did not want to do it, and he challenged them to write something better. They went away and wrote Please, Please Me.
-
Scarlett14:
So would you say that this ability to constantly reinvent themselves is unique to The Beatles...or just unique in the sense that they did it successfully for such a long time? Did any other group do this in a similar fashion? The Stones? Moody Blues? If we were speaking about a singer and not a band doing this would we talking about Michael Jackson?
I would put David Bowie and David Byrne in that category, for sure. As well as the group XTC. I think Michael reinvented himself to an extent, but eventually just became a follower of other people's innovations and lost his creative spark.
-
Scarlett14:
So would you say that this ability to constantly reinvent themselves is unique to The Beatles...or just unique in the sense that they did it successfully for such a long time? Did any other group do this in a similar fashion? The Stones? Moody Blues? If we were speaking about a singer and not a band doing this would we talking about Michael Jackson?
Definitely Michael, but also David Bowie and Elvis Presley. In the group category Pink Floyd did this and also Led Zeppelin.
-
favoritething:
I would put David Bowie and David Byrne in that category, for sure. As well as the group XTC.
Fave, I am embarrassed to say that I do not know David Byrne or XTC. Are they extremely famous in the music world and I've been hiding under a rock or what?
-
beatlesfanrandy:
Definitely Michael, but also David Bowie and Elvis Presley. In the group category Pink Floyd did this and also Led Zeppelin.
Randy, I don't know enough about Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin to be able to comment on them. Wish I could. I'd definitely agree about Michael and Elvis. I don't know a whole lot about Bowie but I can't believe that the guy who sang "Space Oddity" is the same guy who sang "Little Drummer Boy" with Bing Crosby. Incredible!
-
Scarlett14:
favoritething:
I would put David Bowie and David Byrne in that category, for sure. As well as the group XTC.
Fave, I am embarrassed to say that I do not know David Byrne or XTC. Are they extremely famous in the music world and I've been hiding under a rock or what?
David Byrne is best known as the singer for Talking Heads: Take Me To The River, Psycho Killer, Burning Down The House, etc. When he went solo, he delved deep into Brazilian music, and he has done a lot of experimenting with different styles since then. XTC is one of my favorites. They started out doing herky-jerky new wave in the late '70s but evolved into more guitar-oriented rock ("Making Plans For Nigel," "Senses Working Overtime") before veering into a Beatle-like phase in the late '80s ("Dear God," "The Mayor Of Simpleton") followed by more stately orchestral work, followed by more electric rock before disbanding in the mid-2000s.
-
favoritething:
Scarlett14:
favoritething:
I would put David Bowie and David Byrne in that category, for sure. As well as the group XTC.
Fave, I am embarrassed to say that I do not know David Byrne or XTC. Are they extremely famous in the music world and I've been hiding under a rock or what?
David Byrne is best known as the singer for Talking Heads: Take Me To The River, Psycho Killer, Burning Down The House, etc. When he went solo, he delved deep into Brazilian music, and he has done a lot of experimenting with different styles since then. XTC is one of my favorites. They started out doing herky-jerky new wave in the late '70s but evolved into more guitar-oriented rock ("Making Plans For Nigel," "Senses Working Overtime") before veering into a Beatle-like phase in the late '80s ("Dear God," "The Mayor Of Simpleton") followed by more stately orchestral work, followed by more electric rock before disbanding in the mid-2000s.
Fave, I can see now that I spent entirely too much time listening to The Carpenters back in those days.
-
Scarlett14:
So would you say that this ability to constantly reinvent themselves is unique to The Beatles...or just unique in the sense that they did it successfully for such a long time? Did any other group do this in a similar fashion? The Stones? Moody Blues? If we were speaking about a singer and not a band doing this would we talking about Michael Jackson?
I would put the Velvet Underground (Lou Reed) near the top of my list. The 1st true alternative band. They released 4 albums when Reed was their leader, each one groundbreaking & sounding nothing like the previous album. They only became truly famous years after they broke-up in 1970. IMO, Bowie is up their with the Beatles in terms of transforming himself & always being groundbreaking. From the late 60s Space Oddity to 1983's Lets Dance - Bowie released a number of genre-creating albums.
-
These are all very interesting examples of singers/bands who challenged themselves. What singers/bands were notoriously just the opposite of that? I have always loved the band, Herman's Hermits, but their songs are pretty predictable. Some of these "predictable" singers/bands must have met the Beatles along the way. I'm not a rock singer or musician but if I had been one of those fairly well-known bands I would have felt embarrassed to have even had a conversation with a band as great as The Beatles if I were not producing the same quality music as they were. Is there some sort of bond and understanding among singers and musicians that there is a mutual respect for each others' work no matter how great one might be and how formulaic another might be? There's not a snobbery like "I'm too good to even deal with the likes of you", is there? I still love Herman's Hermits music to this day...there is a place for those kinds of songs I think. They're just not ever going down in history as the greatest band ever. In light of our discussion here regarding how the Beatles challenged themselves (and it seems so few others did), if there were an intergalactic music competition and Earth had to choose one band or singer to represent us against other planets' contestants, my money would be on The Beatles as we knew them from 1960-1970. Is there another band who you feel would do the job better?
-
Short answer: Nope!
-
Nancy R:
Short answer: Nope!
I like that short answer! If the competition were based on pure singing talent alone in any genre I might choose Pavarotti but for rock singer, composer of both music/lyrics, entertainer...well, you have to go with the Fab Four. They actually beat out Pavarotti on many fronts.
