MEAT EATERS-SHAME ON YOU
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Oh, I get your kidding and I take it good naturedly. But seriously, there is only one group in the enter history of the human race that even comes close to true respect for all life. According to Sagan, it's the Jain of India. I first learned about them in an early Star Trek novel called Devilworld and was amazed to learn they are real. It was an incredible introduction. Google them and learn more about them. and then go an emulate them where one can. They also believe in respect for fellow humans as well as plant life too. I'm still laughing at the irony that an ex-veg has converted more people into trying the idea of vegan food and meatless meals partially then a militant veg. Now here's an issue that no vegetarian likes to bring up: The Blood Type Diet. This is a diet based on eating certain groups of foods based on the blood types. The most common type of blood type in the world is O and according to the diet, they'd never survive without red meat. Vegetarians don't like the idea of this diet. but it has some bases in fact. (that still doesn't mean they need to eat it every day though and still need vegetables) Me? I'm a type A. perfectly suited to a whole grain -veggie diet. Which is the bulk of my food. (and I shouldn't eat those mangos and bell pepppers but I shouldn't because Mangos aren't local and bell peppers are nightshades and cause inflamation).
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i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
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I became an organic vegan 25 years ago for over 6 years for environmental reasons. What I find among the self-righteousness that I loathed wasn't just among vegans vs meat eaters but also among vegetarians who went that way for their personal ethics snubbing their noses at other vegetarians who became that way for other reasons (such as environmental or health concerns or even in some cases, religious reasons relating to following a strict diet). I don't get the nose snubbing. and it does nothing to enhance the movement.
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steblap:
i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
Here's is why I am skeptical of anybody who uses compassion as their basis for any defense: For years, I head the Pro-Life movement use the exact same articles that vegetarians use to deny me using birth control so I don't become a breeder. Not kidding. Cross out the word animal and put, "baby" in it's place in any argument in this thread (From the ones allowed to stay up) and you get the same propaganda. And we're not even talking about conception happening which is a whole entity of ideas and philosphies in and of itself. even a barrier method such as a condom is denying an unborn life a chance to live. Then, I got to know more about the so-called pro-lifers. They deny all birth control. They deny homosexuality, a group that doesn't have unwanted pregnancies. They deny sexual acts that don't lead to pregnancy and they deny adults becoming educated about such acts. (I've been to the classes where they've raided and disrupted). They claim they are doing this out of their compassion for the unborn. But they also are pro-gun, pro-death sentence and execution, as well as denying women any health care of any type because women have the potential to have abortions. (No funding for centers that treat fibroids or endometriosis because 10% of their services provide abortions. So all women are denied health care). I won't even go into how the same group denies living children welfare to survive. that part I don't get at all. As a result of this twisted and sick logic that is really causing havoc on too many women, I realized many who claim to love life are really just anti-sex. Period. and I've been leary of any movement that claims it's about compassion since then. Including the vegetarians that use the exact same arguments word for word.
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Kathryn O:
steblap:
i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
Here's is why I am skeptical of anybody who uses compassion as their basis for any defense: For years, I head the Pro-Life movement use the exact same articles that vegetarians use to deny me using birth control so I don't become a breeder. Not kidding. Cross out the word animal and put, "baby" in it's place in any argument in this thread (From the ones allowed to stay up) and you get the same propaganda. And we're not even talking about conception happening which is a whole entity of ideas and philosphies in and of itself. even a barrier method such as a condom is denying an unborn life a chance to live. Then, I got to know more about the so-called pro-lifers. They deny all birth control. They deny homosexuality, a group that doesn't have unwanted pregnancies. They deny sexual acts that don't lead to pregnancy and they deny adults becoming educated about such acts. (I've been to the classes where they've raided and disrupted). They claim they are doing this out of their compassion for the unborn. But they also are pro-gun, pro-death sentence and execution, as well as denying women any health care of any type because women have the potential to have abortions. (No funding for centers that treat fibroids or endometriosis because 10% of their services provide abortions. So all women are denied health care). I won't even go into how the same group denies living children welfare to survive. that part I don't get at all. As a result of this twisted and sick logic that is really causing havoc on too many women, I realized many who claim to love life are really just anti-sex. Period. and I've been leary of any movement that claims it's about compassion since then. Including the vegetarians that use the exact same arguments word for word.
I am O+ blood type. I take lots of supplements as I have stated and as long as I do so I feel fine. As far as being compassionate and anti-sex, I definitely do not fit that mold. I am compassionate about the life of all beings and a sex nut when I am with the right person. I don't have any children, so I guess I am not a breeder either. I will look further into the India thing you were talking about in an earlier post Kathryn, sounds interesting.
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all your bitterness and defensiveness aside Kathryn, if Sir Paul's exposé 'glass walls' didn't affect you enough to keep being at least vegetarian, if not vegan, then there's something really wrong inside you. the only reason necessary to stop funding the killing of animals/stop eating them is their suffering and murder. it doesn't matter your repeated self-aggrandizing about 'how many you have made interested in going vege' but about what you and all animal-eaters are causing, contributing to and perpetuating. your repeated 'used to be vegan' serves no purpose for the sake of the animals whatsoever. it doesn't matter what you 'used to do' but what you are doing right now and will do for the animals. since you failed to continue being a vegan, then you resumed contributing to the pain, suffering and murder of animals and will continue to do so unless you change back to being vegan. every excuse you try to make, whether it be your already stated excuses about other vegans or whomever, is weak and just exposes your own lack of determination to do what is right and to stick to doing what is for the benefit of the innocent animals who are killed because people do not want to stop eating them even when they are aware of the facts and the horror. you brought up the Jains also and proposed that people should try to follow what they can of them. what's then your excuse for not following? some Jain's attitude also is your excuse? the only reason you feel you are some 'champion' on this thread with your obnoxious attitude is because i am outnumbered by those who eat animals on here. there is nothing you can say, no matter how insultively, snidely or bitterly as in your retorts thus far that can really clear you from being part of the shame that is paying for the murder of animals. EXCEPT if you take heed of Sir Paul's appeal and stop eating them.
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Kathryn O:
steblap:
i am B group, so i'm supposed to be a milk addict , but actually i'm lactose intolerant ... something must have gone wrong with me Seriously most of us who turned vegetarian or vegan just made an ethical choice based on compassion for animals. Then we try to exhibit a lot of scientific arguments that can fit ... some do and some other ... who knows It's a sort of self defence. But basically it's a matter of compassion
Here's is why I am skeptical of anybody who uses compassion as their basis for any defense: For years, I head the Pro-Life movement use the exact same articles that vegetarians use to deny me using birth control so I don't become a breeder. Not kidding. Cross out the word animal and put, "baby" in it's place in any argument in this thread (From the ones allowed to stay up) and you get the same propaganda. And we're not even talking about conception happening which is a whole entity of ideas and philosphies in and of itself. even a barrier method such as a condom is denying an unborn life a chance to live. Then, I got to know more about the so-called pro-lifers. They deny all birth control. They deny homosexuality, a group that doesn't have unwanted pregnancies. They deny sexual acts that don't lead to pregnancy and they deny adults becoming educated about such acts. (I've been to the classes where they've raided and disrupted). They claim they are doing this out of their compassion for the unborn. But they also are pro-gun, pro-death sentence and execution, as well as denying women any health care of any type because women have the potential to have abortions. (No funding for centers that treat fibroids or endometriosis because 10% of their services provide abortions. So all women are denied health care). I won't even go into how the same group denies living children welfare to survive. that part I don't get at all. As a result of this twisted and sick logic that is really causing havoc on too many women, I realized many who claim to love life are really just anti-sex. Period. and I've been leary of any movement that claims it's about compassion since then. Including the vegetarians that use the exact same arguments word for word.
You are right when you say compassion can be used to justify each own belief but being honest makes a big difference. When someone uses compassion to choose for somoene's sufference over someone else's then he's not being honest, he's just sinking into deep water. If you belive that a baby should live despite, say, his mother's health or will, you are causeing sufference anyway. I won't discuss the ethical reasons one can have because it would just be out of topic here. I just strongly belive that no one should ever be entitled to decide about anyone else's sufference. But when it comes to vegetarian compassion i don't see who could ever be hurt or annoyed or threatened. I would never defend a stag against a lion. I would just point out that on the side of meat-eaters there's no other argument than their own pleasure. No suffering or whatever else. So my/our choicefull it's pretty peaceful and harmless. Ok, now we could start a thread about vegetable welfare As to some vegans' attitude you mentioned in the other post, i completely agree with you that some can be very snob with people who don't share their beliefs. This unpleasant attitude is just the right way to put all the matter in a bad light, it's just so silly
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simplyrahil:
all your bitterness and defensiveness aside Kathryn, if Sir Paul's exposé 'glass walls' didn't affect you enough to keep being at least vegetarian, if not vegan, then there's something really wrong inside you. .
This is more of the type of BS as to what I hate in vegetarians. SOMETHING WRONG INSIDE OF ME? Remember, one finger pointed at me, three are pointed back at you. First of all, you are the one who has been displaying bitterness and defensiveness from the beginning. Dude, take a look in the mirror long enough to see it. Secondly, I'd say there is clearly something wrong inside of you. You simply parrot catch-phrases rather then speak from your own heart. (Granted, I think English may not be your first language so I can cut some slack that part until you never repeated one single original thought or phrase). Dude, that's the sign of a cult-like fanatic. No matter how noble your cause, there is an inherent danger in that type of mentality about anything. and saying such nasty things as you have such as there is something wrong with me will only push me further from your cause more and more and even be reflected when someone who can word it in a better manner comes along. That poor person will have to break down the barrier you made. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a basic primal instinct. Unless you find nature to be flawed as well.
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excuses, excuses, excuses listen to Sir Paul and stop eating the animals
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We're watching the dialogue out here. Watching the carnist loser try to make her case (which is basically "I don't give a F*CK about animals and the people who do care PISS ME OFF!"). I'd be embarrassed if I were her, telling someone from Trinidad that English is probably their second language. Ignorance is as ignorance does, and for the ignorant, ad hominem attacks are the only way to think you've won an argument - if all else fails. I hate people like that, so I guess we're even. Too stupid to engage in an argument based on the actual points of the argument, too dumb to admit that they are the problem. Too arrogant to realize that they are the ones with the false sense of superiority, and truly not worthy of the two minutes it took to type this - but I needed to express that Rahil is not alone on the site and you, my dear, are definitely not lording anything over the vegans here. We have found the path, the one that the Beatles wrote about many moons ago. And the one that Paul advocates. And you're simply angry and jealous about it. Now, get off your high horse. You're welcome.
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I'm new here, but have been following this topic with great interest... A lot of people on here have been saying that the aggressive approaches from vegans, along with the more graphic animal rights photos and videos are not effective and drive people away from trying veganism... Some studies have been done showing that to be inaccurate, and there are ongoing programs at this time that are also showing that to be wrong. Many people I have talked with, both close friends and simply acquaintances have specifically told me that even though they were angry, uncomfortable and upset at first when they saw those types of photos/videos on mine and others facebooks, twitters, Tumblrs, etc., etc... those are exactly the things that made them reconsider what they were supporting and condoning in the first place. Yes, maybe not the first week, or the first month they saw them, but it did start having an effect and many, many of those people are now in the process of going vegan...or at the very least, vegetarian, with the intent to go vegan as soon as they can. So the more graphic info and tactics that show the horror of the meat/dairy/poultry industries may not work on everyone, but has its place, and is incredibly effective on many, many people ... Sadly, those of you who say you, "would go on being meat-eaters BECAUSE someone like you (vegans) accuses me."....or that you would actually switch from vegan to being a meat eater again because you don't like what you view as "typical vegan behavior"...are missing the point entirely... Which is...the killing of animals for food has caused a catastrophic effect on this planet and every life form on it. We have humans starving and suffering with no clean water......while food animals are fed well and water is wasted in alarming amounts on their care and raising...just to afford the meat eaters the chance to continue eating what they are "accustomed to" and refuse to do without.... You are taking a group of people...vegans...who try to live compassionately and with care and deep concern... towards the most innocent, but horrifically abused and tortured group of beings...animals...and then turning those vegans into your personal kicking posts. Why? Because basically, it really bothers you that you find it impossible to stop what you are doing and look at the bigger picture...which is the killing of innocent animals for absolutely no good reason at all...and the effect it has on the world at large... You can try to convince people all you want that you love meat, and have no problem that animals die in horrific ways to provide you that 10 minutes of taste...entire lives wiped out simply because of selfishness... You can try, but it honestly makes no sense... It is the highest insult to animals that people refuse to see what they are doing, and choose instead to just keep doing it...even though it is so obviously wrong... And...it is the highest insult to humans who are starving, while grain is stockpiled and fed to food animals.... Now, I'll stop for a bit and wait to be called angry...extreme...loudmouthed...rude...righteousness, etc. And then...I will ask you to read back through my post and point out any of that...because it is not there...it will just be your "perception" of what you want to see.... to excuse your behavior, not mine.
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Hi all and welcome to the message board. The debate clearly is close to Paul's heart as he just now is making a major relaunch of the families involvement with Linda McCartney Foods, Mary McCartney's book called Food etc If you read back a few pages or so you'll see the moderator and admin team made a few advisory posts calling that the debate focusses on the issues and various attitudes and avoids personalising the debate with attacks and insults on the individual contributors to the debate. And we would ask that future posts are kept to the topic as well, likewise avoiding insults to individuals. We want the debate to flow freely without any call for our moderation services, but should that ambition fail, please contact the Mod team and we will review post content and act if needed. Welcome once more. Martin
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Dierdra:
A lot of people on here have been saying that the aggressive approaches from vegans, along with the more graphic animal rights photos and videos are not effective and drive people away from trying veganism... Some studies have been done showing that to be inaccurate, and there are ongoing programs at this time that are also showing that to be wrong. ..........................................
Could you give me the links to some of these scientific articles/studies where it is shown to be effective trying to persuade people to one's point of view by communicating with them in an aggressive way? I am not referring to photos or videos. I am referring to the interaction, the way we treat others while trying to persuade them. Thanks.
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oh c'mon guys, calm dawn i've gone vegan after 10 years of being vegetarian, so i can clearly understand how passionate some of us can be. But i for one get annoyed when a vegetarian assume to be better than anyone else, the same way i get annoyed by an omnivore making fun of my beliefs. Can we go back to a simple discussion without winner or looser?
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Dierdra wrote: A lot of people on here have been saying that the aggressive approaches from vegans, along with the more graphic animal rights photos and videos are not effective and drive people away from trying veganism... .......................................... me2 Learn To Fly Could you give me the links to some of these scientific articles/studies where it is shown to be effective trying to persuade people to one's point of view by communicating with them in an aggressive way? I am not referring to photos or videos. I am referring to the interaction, the way we treat others while trying to persuade them. Thanks. ______________________________________ @ me2 I said "aggressive approaches", and to non vegans, that is virtually anything that makes them think about what they are doing! We vegans only have to "look" at non-vegans to get them going... I was not talking about acts of aggression...but just calling carnists out on the constant brutal murder of animals which happens every single day, across the entire world....simply because of human greed.... And that is considered an "aggressive approach" by carnists... Any words spoken by vegans is ammunition for them to jump up and start a riot...you just don't like being reminded, in any way, of what you support and pay for by your food choices. That is NOT our fault....that is your conscience talking...maybe you should listen to it.... There is nothing vegans can do, beyond treating carnists with kid gloves and gentle words...and we will NOT do that when the stakes are so astronomically high...for ALL the animals who are suffering.
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AMEN to all Jags said AMEN to all Lone Raven said and AMEN to all Dierdra said TRUTH great posts ladies keep telling it as it is
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simplyrahil:
AMEN to all Jags said AMEN to all Lone Raven said and AMEN to all Dierdra said TRUTH great posts ladies keep telling it as it is
They're not the only ones telling it like it is. Calling you out for your insults to me is also telling it like it is also. A militant vegan coworker today said to me, "Don't label me a vegan. I'm not being called a vegan anymore." "Why?" I asked him. "Did some girl you wanted to hook up with get you to eat ice cream?" (A common fall to many militant vegan males) "No. I just don't like the negative connotations with the name. So I'm not going to be called that anymore." "Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Would a vegan by any other name preach in a less b*t*h* manner?" I got applause from some of my coworkers. The dude needs an attitude change. (and I'm telling it like it is. He's nothing but a downer all the time)
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simplyrahil:
. the only reason you feel you are some 'champion' on this thread with your obnoxious attitude is because i am outnumbered by those who eat animals on here. .
No, I am simply also telling it like it is even if it's a truth you refuse to face (just as you accuse everyone else of doing). the only name-calling or personal insults I do are simply reflecting yours right back at you and I understand Godwin's law. Also, I don't parrot the same phrases. I speak from the heart (though I make allowances on your part for language differences)
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Dierdra:
I'm new here, but have been following this topic with great interest... A lot of people on here have been saying that the aggressive approaches from vegans, along with the more graphic animal rights photos and videos are not effective and drive people away from trying veganism... Some studies have been done showing that to be inaccurate, and there are ongoing programs at this time that are also showing that to be wrong. .
actual links to reports of these studies is needed. one study conducted in the late 90s said that vegetarians going about living their lives converted more people who noticed their health and asked questions. they found people were more open to hearing them talk about their lifestyle choices when they approached it that way. (I Know I read it in the Detroit News)
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Dierdra:
.You are taking a group of people...vegans...who try to live compassionately and with care and deep concern... towards the most innocent, but horrifically abused and tortured group of beings...animals...and then turning those vegans into your personal kicking posts..
actually, Dierdra, most of the post have been simply telling the vegans to stop turning the rest of the world into their personal kicking post. I've been following this thread, too.