Was V&M another near miss for Macca?
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favoritething:
Squid:
favoritething:
"Listen To What The Man Said" (a #1 hit) wasn't on Wings Greatest. What does THAT say about his disappointment?
It was on All the Best. And the fact it wasn't on Wings Greatest suggests to me that he wanted to forget all about Venus and Mars for a while.
Perhaps, but still he did do almost the entire V&M album on the 1976 U.S. tour, after SOS was already out and only being represented by four of its songs.
Exactly! I think this comment pretty much sums up that McCartney knew exactly what he was doing in 1976 and that V&M was a successful LP to tour behind and it was a smashing successful tour.
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When I originally wrote this post, I never was thinking that V&M (as well as SOS) was not successful. All Three albums (including BOTR) were the absolute zenith of his career. When you add Wings Over America to these 3 to finish it off, it was total vindication for Paul against the critics and even his former Bandmates who were all at various times rough on him. The music business is so fickle that it is very rare that an artist can dominate twice in his/her career like he did in the 60's and then in the mid-70's. My theory on the near miss of V&M was far more from a critical point of view. I guess frustrated when you see Greatest Album Polls (i.e. RollingStone 500 Poll) and Paul only has one on the list (BOTR) and that gets listed I believe in the 400's. I just think Paul should have had more. I really think that Wings Over America should be on the list. I think that Frampton Live is pretty high on the List. That being the case, shouldn't WOA be considered. I also think that Tug of War and Flaming Pie should be on the list (at least on the back end). Anyway just a thought. I guess the bigger question (not so much about V&M and SOS) is what happen to the momentum that Paul had built after the hugely successful US tour. There just didn't seem to be any kind of buzz with London Town and espcially Back to the Egg. Obviously the fickle aspect of the business came into play with the disco craze. I really like Back to the Egg. Shame Paull didn't put the single on "Egg" I forget the A side by the B side was the glorious Daytime-Nightime Suffering. Any thoughts on just what killed London Town and Back to the Egg.
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B J Conlee:
When I originally wrote this post, I never was thinking that V&M (as well as SOS) was not successful. All Three albums (including BOTR) were the absolute zenith of his career. When you add Wings Over America to these 3 to finish it off, it was total vindication for Paul against the critics and even his former Bandmates who were all at various times rough on him. The music business is so fickle that it is very rare that an artist can dominate twice in his/her career like he did in the 60's and then in the mid-70's. My theory on the near miss of V&M was far more from a critical point of view. I guess frustrated when you see Greatest Album Polls (i.e. RollingStone 500 Poll) and Paul only has one on the list (BOTR) and that gets listed I believe in the 400's. I just think Paul should have had more. I really think that Wings Over America should be on the list. I think that Frampton Live is pretty high on the List. That being the case, shouldn't WOA be considered. I also think that Tug of War and Flaming Pie should be on the list (at least on the back end). Anyway just a thought. I guess the bigger question (not so much about V&M and SOS) is what happen to the momentum that Paul had built after the hugely successful US tour. There just didn't seem to be any kind of buzz with London Town and espcially Back to the Egg. Obviously the fickle aspect of the business came into play with the disco craze. I really like Back to the Egg. Shame Paull didn't put the single on "Egg" I forget the A side by the B side was the glorious Daytime-Nightime Suffering. Any thoughts on just what killed London Town and Back to the Egg.
Goodnight Tonight was the A-side. I agree with what you are saying and I suspect most fans will too. I remember in 1978 being very excited, as I had lived through the whole WOA tour and live LP. Mull of Kyntire came out, and though Girls School was very promising, it was not a hit. Mull was and it was an acoustic folk tune, hardly something to tour around. I thought a new LP and a tour would follow. Things got shaky when Joe English and Jimmy McCullough quit Wings. I remember London Town coming out and thinking, while it was great, it did not seem to ROCK for an arena tour. With A Little Luck was good, but kind of light. The video showed Paul, Linda and Denny, and a new drummer. But no guitar player. That did not put confidence in me about a tour. Back to the Egg was a really great return to form, but I always though it a bit strange when Wings toured the UK in 1979, they played theaters and a much shorter set list than in 1976. I think it was to "break in" the two new band members, Laurence Juber and Steve Holly. Egg was not received well by the critics, if I remember correctly. Then the Japan bust, and that was that. No more tour. No more Wings. I think, the near miss was actually London Town and then Back To The Egg. Had the 76 line up of Wings stayed intact, and London Town rocked a bit more (maybe have Girls School on it) followed by an arena tour in 1979, things may have been harder rocking and less slick production for Paul and Wings. Even Goodnight Tonight was not much of a tune to slay audiences with in an arena setting. Not if you are competing with The Stones and Led Zep and KISS, the arena giants of that time period.
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I think that after the drug bust and then John's murder, Paul & Linda just decided to stay home and raise their kids, which was probably a wise move. (unfortunate for the fans though)
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Nancy R:
I think that after the drug bust and then John's murder, Paul & Linda just decided to stay home and raise their kids, which was probably a wise move. (unfortunate for the fans though)
Yeah there's that too. But what I laid out above was already in play before that terrible event (John's murder).
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Personally, I think V&M is extremely overrated (at least by Macca fans) & cant hold a candle to BOTR, song-for-song. 'Listen to What the Man Said' is definitely catchy but its lightweight. I like 'Call me Back Again'. But the rest of the album is very bland & the production too dense to grab the listener. BOTR has an immediate feel to it & the best melodies Macca has ever written , including when he was with his other band.
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I think Letting Go is heavier than anything on BOTR. So is Rock Show.
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"Venus and Mars" is not one of my favorites from Macca
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beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
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Bruce M.:
beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
^^^I agree but sort of disagree at the same time...kind of chicken/egg argument. There's no doubt Paul's music sold well in the 70's and I personally believe it was deserved. However, there used to be a lot of discussion regarding the theory that Paul's albums sold because he was a former Beatle. All the former Beatles albums sold well, at least in the first half of that decade. And remember, the opportunity to really 'grab' the feel/quality of a new album ahead of time was not what it is these days...while a few sample songs were sent out to DJs ahead of time to help with the pre-release promotion, you largely bought on blind instinct that Paul's new album would bring some satisfaction along with the trust of some publication's review. Just my .02...but to your point, the way the charts reflected 'success' often depicted some level of 'curve' as the albums became more and more in the public's favor (not like nowadays where the ascent to the top of the charts is almost immediate and if it doesn't shoot into the top 10 in the first week or two, forget about it)
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I think there is a lot of historical revisionism going on here. McCartney in the 70s was quite a different entity than in the current time. People were not all that nostalgic for the Beatles in the mid 70s. It was only five years since the break up, and McCartney was actually fighting cynical critics and struggled to establish himself as an artist separate from the Beatles. Even Wings was billed as such in 1976, not as Paul McCartney and Wings. To be fair, there was a certain amount of anticipation for a BEATLES reunion. But McCartney on his own was just that. And people knew it when they bought his LPs and went to his shows back then. To say people went to see him in 1976 only to hear a few Beatles songs or people bought his music merely because he was a Beatle really misses what it was ACTUALLY like back then. In 1976, people were going to hear Wings play songs off of SOS, Venus and Mars, and BOTR. LPs that made up the bulk of his set list. It is NOW that people go see him because of his Beatles past. It just was not the case back in the mid 70s.
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Bruce M.:
beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
I was there and I don't agree. People on line were there to see the Beatle. They came away knowing Wings. But the biggest cheer was for Yesterday.
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RMartinez:
I think there is a lot of historical revisionism going on here. McCartney in the 70s was quite a different entity than in the current time. People were not all that nostalgic for the Beatles in the mid 70s. It was only five years since the break up, and McCartney was actually fighting cynical critics and struggled to establish himself as an artist separate from the Beatles. Even Wings was billed as such in 1976, not as Paul McCartney and Wings. To be fair, there was a certain amount of anticipation for a BEATLES reunion. But McCartney on his own was just that. And people knew it when they bought his LPs and went to his shows back then. To say people went to see him in 1976 only to hear a few Beatles songs or people bought his music merely because he was a Beatle really misses what it was ACTUALLY like back then. In 1976, people were going to hear Wings play songs off of SOS, Venus and Mars, and BOTR. LPs that made up the bulk of his set list. It is NOW that people go see him because of his Beatles past. It just was not the case back in the mid 70s.
I don't agree with the revisionism - at least in terms of Paul and his Beatle connections. I mean you are right that people see him more nowadays because he was a Beatle moreso than back then (I was around then too)...however, they did go to see him because he was a big popular star (and being and ex Beatle didn't hurt)...His concerts sold out and his records sold like they did was not so much because he was a former Beatle, but because he was a current big star....much like how Elton John, Billy Joel, David Bowie, Rod Stewart and other big stars of the 70's sold records and seats at concerts....but on the flip side, people often look at this kind of comment as a negative...but I don't see it this way. Concerts selling out and records hitting the top of the charts (with a big reason simply being your name and reputation) is something that is earned and does not happen to hacks
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beatlesfanrandy:
Bruce M.:
beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
I was there and I don't agree. People on line were there to see the Beatle. They came away knowing Wings. But the biggest cheer was for Yesterday.
I was there too and you are wrong. People went to see Paul McCartney. They went to see Wings. They did not go to see a Beatle concert the way they do today. Of COURSE Yesterday got a huge response! It always will. It's his biggest song. Even that is almost a solo song. Not really a Beatle song like I Want To Hold Your Hand or She Loves You. You really don't know what you are saying if you think everyone went to those shows not knowing who Wings was. That's ridiculous! I was there, I went with a huge group of people in Denver and everyone was listening to BOTR, SOS, and V&M on the way on their 8 tracks! No one had Beatle songs playing. The tour was advertised as Wings Over America. NOT even Paul McCartney and Wings Over America. The Beatles were always going to be in people's heads to a point. But you are wrong when you try to say it was essentially a Beatle event and Wings had nothing or little to do with any of it. Yes, Paul's name had impact. But Denny Laine sang five songs in the set list, Jimmy sang one. McCartney sang lead on 24 of 30 songs. I can say this: it was brilliant! Seeing McCartney play his Rickenbacker and do a LOT of Wings songs was amazing, and the five Beatle songs in the set list reminded people what a great legacy he has. Seventy three percent of Wings' set list in 1976 was made up of Wings tunes. That pretty much makes it a Wings event.
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Maybe is not one thing or another... What if happened both things? people who went to see Paul McCartney the ex-Beatle and people who went to see Wings. Although Wings and Beatles have no point of possible comparison, they have one thing in common: commercial success. In seven years, Beatles made about 40 big hits. Wings had My Love, Band On The Run, Listen What The Man Said and Silly Love Songs (talking about #1 hits), and Jet, and Rock Show, and Let'Em In... that's the reason of why WOA was a great success. It gathered nostalgic fans and Wings fans, in equal parts. Besides, I think that the Wings Tour was the first time Paul appeared in stage since 1966. And one more thing: what were John and George doing in that time?... Paul was the only one who decided to carry all the weight on his back.
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IMO, this album is good and fun but not as great as Band on the Run. Even then it was very successful. First of all, the cover is wonderful. Such a great cover should have contained a masterpiece in it. Like someone has pointed out, IMHO it would have been a masterwork at the level of Band on the run IF - Production was better. George Martin? a dream... - Music selection and and running order was different. - Maybe a mixture of the best of At the Speed of Sound an V&M would have made a true classic with four top singles in it. My tentative selection would have been Side A 1.-Venus and Mars . 2.-Magneto and Titanium. 3.- Beware my love. 4.- Letting go. 5.-She's my Babe 6.-Silly Love Songs (Answering John..!) 7.- Juniors Farm. 8.-Lunch Box Odd Sox Side B 9.-Let'em in. (Brrrother John... let'em in...) 10.- Rock Show (Remake the song more rock ala get back, rhythm , soul and swing). It's a good fun song with poor performance / arrangements IMO. I love the last piano bit. 11.-You gave me the Answer 12.- Listen to what the man said. 13.-San Ferry Anne 14- Call me back again (He is singing to John..!) 15.- Sally G 16.- Warm and beautiful Produced by George Martin and Paul McCartney (Satisfaction guaranteed) Singles Listen to what the man said / Love in Song Silly Love Songs / Medicine Jar Let'em in / Treat her Gently - Lonely old people Juniors Farm / Time to Hide Enough to go on that successful tour for two to three years while leaving a second classic in a row. Enough to definitely convince John to join forces again... with permission of Mrs ONO. Just an HO.
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Strawberry kiss: Some good ideas there.
P.S. I believe you need to re-think your avatar though.
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It's my understanding that Wings at the Speed of Sound came about due to a break in the tour caused by Jimmy hurting his hand in some kind of bar brawl...with that said, while I'm sure some of the songs were already penned (they almost had to be, in fact), the album was recorded prematurely to when ever Paul planned to record it ***just to add or amend what I said above, it appears the recording of the album had already begun but had been put on hold while they toured...then Jimmy's incident allowed for the second session which allowed for the completion of the album (yes, I took time out to research this right in the middle of the post...LOL)
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There is mention in the V&M book that a trailer/coach of Paul's was totally trashed by Jimmy McC. That kid was a disaster just waiting to happen.
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rich n:
Bruce M.:
beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
^^^I agree but sort of disagree at the same time...kind of chicken/egg argument. There's no doubt Paul's music sold well in the 70's and I personally believe it was deserved. However, there used to be a lot of discussion regarding the theory that Paul's albums sold because he was a former Beatle. All the former Beatles albums sold well, at least in the first half of that decade. And remember, the opportunity to really 'grab' the feel/quality of a new album ahead of time was not what it is these days...while a few sample songs were sent out to DJs ahead of time to help with the pre-release promotion, you largely bought on blind instinct that Paul's new album would bring some satisfaction along with the trust of some publication's review. Just my .02...but to your point, the way the charts reflected 'success' often depicted some level of 'curve' as the albums became more and more in the public's favor (not like nowadays where the ascent to the top of the charts is almost immediate and if it doesn't shoot into the top 10 in the first week or two, forget about it)
Speaking of historical revisionism... Actually, it's pretty clear that after the first round of solo albums, the idea of people buying their albums just because they were ex-Beatles died a fairly quick death. Ram never made #1 in the U.S., and"Wild Life" barely reached #10 (and didn't make the top 10 in the UK). Paul also had several singles that didn't do very well (e.g. "Mary Had a Little Lamb"/"Little Woman Love"). The early John & Yoko albums never cracked the top 100, and John didn't have a #1 album in either the U.S. or UK till "Imagine. "Some Time in NYC" only hit #48 in the U.S. despite high-profile TV appearances promoting it. Ringo's first to albums were semi-flops, and he never had a #1 album in the U.S. or UK. What their status as ex-Beatles did do was guarantee at least some radio play, which put them ahead of new and unfamiliar artists, for sure. But no, people weren't buying their albums in vast numbers just because they were ex-Beatles. Paul had nearly run himself into a ditch commercially, began a comeback with RRS (mainly due to "My Love) and cemented his commercial comeback with BOTR.