The ..2012.... Political thread
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keithmestl:
EADG:
- What in the world does BP have to do with privately run philanthopic foundations? I'm comparing the federal government to [fill in the name of your favorite charity, if you have one]. 2) Who said anything about individual rights? I'm all for them, and most conservatives I know believe very strongly in individual rights. But there is a difference between individual rights and government largesse, and where to balance those two is one of the main philosophical differences between liberals and conservatives. This true for both Democrats and Republicans -- it's just that there are more conservatives in the Republican party, proportionally, so the party tends to pursue conservatives social agendas. 3) I have an ideology of selfishness and greed? Believe me, of the many thousands of people i've met in my life -- in all walks of life -- i doubt that you would find one who would describe me as selfish or greedy. I would take that as an insult, except you don't even know me so once again you're making a statement with absolutely no basis in fact. Which is the real reason I won't argue with you.
EADG, you are an island of reason in the sea of sophistry that makes up most of this thread.
Thanks. i think you'll be seeing less of me on this thread. I'm pretty busy and this is beginning to feel like a waste of time. But i'm glad you appreciated my contributions.
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jaipur:
SurSteven:
jaipur:
SurSteven:
jaipur:
The indians are restless on this reservation
The nonsense of deficits....there are "two" kinds, boys and girls...structural (that has existed for umpty dump years....known as social security, medicare) to which grandchildren and great grandchildren will pay) and budget deficits (unemployment). As long as Congress keeps jerking around regarding the Bush tax cuts, businesses CANNOT hire. Because when those cuts expire, companies will need the cash they are currently stashing to pay them This is not about democrats or republican philosophy....it's about where all of us (meaning myself, the wife and others I know) are....it is a little of both......us folks in the center
So, if liberal philosophy is the leftwing philosophy...and republicanism is right hand philosophy...and democracy is the middle and mediating point of view that it always has been..........how does... halfway between the near right and the far right..........become the center?
...it's no wonder that working people are sadly laughing at you....
Working people didn't laugh at Bill Clinton or Tony Blair....both of whom governed from the center. It's no wonder people actually laugh at you instead as that simple fact never occurred to you.
It is us folks in the center that swing elections. Not the extremes on either end.
So, "you are" a Democrat!
No I am not a democrat or a republican. One more time and do try and read for comprehension: Clinton and Blair governed from the center (neither democrat or republican, nor labor or conservative). ps...please take it easy on the indians...they gave a lot more to this country than you did!
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Yes, where would we be without casinos??
How ignorant. When was the last time you talked to Native Americans and called them indians? When was the last time you read about their various rich history and culture? They don't lose sight of who they are, where they came from like Americans have.
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keithmestl:
The_Fool:
A man stands with a hammer pounding holes in the walls. Beating out the pipes that run through the house and crashing holes in the stairs that lead to many rooms upstairs. He lets out a satisfied grunt. There is still so much work to do...
That's a great analogy, and very appropriate! I can see November from my house.
Strangely, so can I. Fortunately, or unfortunately for you, Obama will still be in office and my State will get a good governor (a rerun governor but he was good the first time around).
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beatlechick:
jaipur:
SurSteven:
jaipur:
SurSteven:
jaipur:
The indians are restless on this reservation
The nonsense of deficits....there are "two" kinds, boys and girls...structural (that has existed for umpty dump years....known as social security, medicare) to which grandchildren and great grandchildren will pay) and budget deficits (unemployment). As long as Congress keeps jerking around regarding the Bush tax cuts, businesses CANNOT hire. Because when those cuts expire, companies will need the cash they are currently stashing to pay them This is not about democrats or republican philosophy....it's about where all of us (meaning myself, the wife and others I know) are....it is a little of both......us folks in the center
So, if liberal philosophy is the leftwing philosophy...and republicanism is right hand philosophy...and democracy is the middle and mediating point of view that it always has been..........how does... halfway between the near right and the far right..........become the center?
...it's no wonder that working people are sadly laughing at you....
Working people didn't laugh at Bill Clinton or Tony Blair....both of whom governed from the center. It's no wonder people actually laugh at you instead as that simple fact never occurred to you.
It is us folks in the center that swing elections. Not the extremes on either end.
So, "you are" a Democrat!
No I am not a democrat or a republican. One more time and do try and read for comprehension: Clinton and Blair governed from the center (neither democrat or republican, nor labor or conservative). ps...please take it easy on the indians...they gave a lot more to this country than you did!
:
Yes, where would we be without casinos??
How ignorant. When was the last time you talked to Native Americans and called them indians? When was the last time you read about their various rich history and culture? They don't lose sight of who they are, where they came from like Americans have.
My father in law came from the Wampanoag tribe here in new england. You know the ones that had thanksgiving with the white pilgrims. He didn't mind being called an indian. Native American wasn't part of the vocabulary back then. No need to be so morally indignant or jump to conclusions when there isn't one.
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EADG:
jaipur:
Don't think it's productivity, eadg.....that is quite high and has been for a bit even before 2007. Social security is a bit more fixable than medicare
You may be right about the relative complexity of social security vs medicare. Either way, it seems like congress won't force any major change to either until we reach a point where the votes and contributions of the younger generation outnumber those of the older generation, and then the political logic for some deep cuts in both programs will become irresistable and it will happen and it won't be pretty. Hmmm.....I don't know about that yet. Social Security has a surplus currently. Plus the old geezers are the ones that vote....at least more consistently than the younger folks. The older generation is benefiting from living longer that wasn't part of either program...who knew??
My point about productivity is that the cost of nearly everything is getting cheaper, and technology of one kind or another is behind most of that. (To preemp a comment about WalMart and third world sweatshops being the real reason the cost of goods has stayed so low, that is true for some goods but that is driven in part by technology too, in the form of supply chain management, etc.) The US economy has had a large bubble of productive workers (the baby boom generation) supporting a smaller generation of consumptive retirees, but that is going to invert at some point and the younger generation is going to get stuck supporting a disproportionately large retired class AND paying off the big federal debt. They can't possibly do that without accepting a lower standard of living for themselves, which seems unlikely, unless we get way more productivity per worker (and the younger generation won't give up a share of those productivity gains without a fight, but at least they can generate them there will be something to fight over) or population growth through immigration (and the US will become like a club where you're welcome to join if you can make the cut, but as your prize you get stuck with your share of the debt that the current members have run up). If neither of those things happens, we become like Italy or Japan with an aging population, a stagnant economy, too much debt (in Italy's case) and pretty dreary future for everyone.
**Keep in mind though, that there are quite a large number of old geezers who aren't actually retiring....they are still a productive part of the equation now when that wasn't the case many years ago (meaning they are still earning income most likely part time in their 70s). Also, the folks currently in their sixties aren't living entirely on their retirement income either. Personally, I don't see where the younger generation will be doing all of the heavy lifting in the economy...true, a good share but not all ,simply because the numbers are against them.....more of us then them. Hence, as long as geezers can generate some income they can still contribute and not put all the burden on the smaller, younger folks behind them. You are absolutely spot on regarding technology btw though I am not as pessimistic about the future. good one eadg :**wink:
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jaipur:
EADG:
jaipur:
Don't think it's productivity, eadg.....that is quite high and has been for a bit even before 2007. Social security is a bit more fixable than medicare
You may be right about the relative complexity of social security vs medicare. Either way, it seems like congress won't force any major change to either until we reach a point where the votes and contributions of the younger generation outnumber those of the older generation, and then the political logic for some deep cuts in both programs will become irresistable and it will happen and it won't be pretty. Hmmm.....I don't know about that yet. Social Security has a surplus currently. Plus the old geezers are the ones that vote....at least more consistently than the younger folks. The older generation is benefiting from living longer that wasn't part of either program...who knew??
My point about productivity is that the cost of nearly everything is getting cheaper, and technology of one kind or another is behind most of that. (To preemp a comment about WalMart and third world sweatshops being the real reason the cost of goods has stayed so low, that is true for some goods but that is driven in part by technology too, in the form of supply chain management, etc.) The US economy has had a large bubble of productive workers (the baby boom generation) supporting a smaller generation of consumptive retirees, but that is going to invert at some point and the younger generation is going to get stuck supporting a disproportionately large retired class AND paying off the big federal debt. They can't possibly do that without accepting a lower standard of living for themselves, which seems unlikely, unless we get way more productivity per worker (and the younger generation won't give up a share of those productivity gains without a fight, but at least they can generate them there will be something to fight over) or population growth through immigration (and the US will become like a club where you're welcome to join if you can make the cut, but as your prize you get stuck with your share of the debt that the current members have run up). If neither of those things happens, we become like Italy or Japan with an aging population, a stagnant economy, too much debt (in Italy's case) and pretty dreary future for everyone.
**Keep in mind though, that there are quite a large number of old geezers who aren't actually retiring....they are still a productive part of the equation now when that wasn't the case many years ago (meaning they are still earning income most likely part time in their 70s). Also, the folks currently in their sixties aren't living entirely on their retirement income either. Personally, I don't see where the younger generation will be doing all of the heavy lifting in the economy...true, a good share but not all ,simply because the numbers are against them.....more of us then them. Hence, as long as geezers can generate some income they can still contribute and not put all the burden on the smaller, younger folks behind them. You are absolutely spot on regarding technology btw though I am not as pessimistic about the future. good one eadg :**wink:
You make some good points. In light of all that, I will keep an optimistic outlook. Thanks, dude/girlfriend (whichever it may be).
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jaipur:
beatlechick:
jaipur:
SurSteven:
jaipur:
SurSteven:
jaipur:
The indians are restless on this reservation
The nonsense of deficits....there are "two" kinds, boys and girls...structural (that has existed for umpty dump years....known as social security, medicare) to which grandchildren and great grandchildren will pay) and budget deficits (unemployment). As long as Congress keeps jerking around regarding the Bush tax cuts, businesses CANNOT hire. Because when those cuts expire, companies will need the cash they are currently stashing to pay them This is not about democrats or republican philosophy....it's about where all of us (meaning myself, the wife and others I know) are....it is a little of both......us folks in the center
So, if liberal philosophy is the leftwing philosophy...and republicanism is right hand philosophy...and democracy is the middle and mediating point of view that it always has been..........how does... halfway between the near right and the far right..........become the center?
...it's no wonder that working people are sadly laughing at you....
Working people didn't laugh at Bill Clinton or Tony Blair....both of whom governed from the center. It's no wonder people actually laugh at you instead as that simple fact never occurred to you.
It is us folks in the center that swing elections. Not the extremes on either end.
So, "you are" a Democrat!
No I am not a democrat or a republican. One more time and do try and read for comprehension: Clinton and Blair governed from the center (neither democrat or republican, nor labor or conservative). ps...please take it easy on the indians...they gave a lot more to this country than you did!
:
Yes, where would we be without casinos??
How ignorant. When was the last time you talked to Native Americans and called them indians? When was the last time you read about their various rich history and culture? They don't lose sight of who they are, where they came from like Americans have.
My father in law came from the Wampanoag tribe here in new england. You know the ones that had thanksgiving with the white pilgrims. He didn't mind being called an indian. Native American wasn't part of the vocabulary back then. No need to be so morally indignant or jump to conclusions when there isn't one.
The number of american indians holding political office in this...rightfully...democratic country is staggering.
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EADG:
keithmestl:
EADG:
- What in the world does BP have to do with privately run philanthopic foundations? I'm comparing the federal government to [fill in the name of your favorite charity, if you have one]. 2) Who said anything about individual rights? I'm all for them, and most conservatives I know believe very strongly in individual rights. But there is a difference between individual rights and government largesse, and where to balance those two is one of the main philosophical differences between liberals and conservatives. This true for both Democrats and Republicans -- it's just that there are more conservatives in the Republican party, proportionally, so the party tends to pursue conservatives social agendas. 3) I have an ideology of selfishness and greed? Believe me, of the many thousands of people i've met in my life -- in all walks of life -- i doubt that you would find one who would describe me as selfish or greedy. I would take that as an insult, except you don't even know me so once again you're making a statement with absolutely no basis in fact. Which is the real reason I won't argue with you.
EADG, you are an island of reason in the sea of sophistry that makes up most of this thread.
Thanks. i think you'll be seeing less of me on this thread. I'm pretty busy and this is beginning to feel like a waste of time. But i'm glad you appreciated my contributions.
That's a conclusion I reached a while ago, too. I still check in now and then for a chuckle, though. One can take some consolation in the fact that the majority of the political opinions on this forum are in the minority in the general population, and becoming more so.
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keithmestl:
EADG:
keithmestl:
EADG:
- What in the world does BP have to do with privately run philanthopic foundations? I'm comparing the federal government to [fill in the name of your favorite charity, if you have one]. 2) Who said anything about individual rights? I'm all for them, and most conservatives I know believe very strongly in individual rights. But there is a difference between individual rights and government largesse, and where to balance those two is one of the main philosophical differences between liberals and conservatives. This true for both Democrats and Republicans -- it's just that there are more conservatives in the Republican party, proportionally, so the party tends to pursue conservatives social agendas. 3) I have an ideology of selfishness and greed? Believe me, of the many thousands of people i've met in my life -- in all walks of life -- i doubt that you would find one who would describe me as selfish or greedy. I would take that as an insult, except you don't even know me so once again you're making a statement with absolutely no basis in fact. Which is the real reason I won't argue with you.
EADG, you are an island of reason in the sea of sophistry that makes up most of this thread.
Thanks. i think you'll be seeing less of me on this thread. I'm pretty busy and this is beginning to feel like a waste of time. But i'm glad you appreciated my contributions.
That's a conclusion I reached a while ago, too. I still check in now and then for a chuckle, though. One can take some consolation in the fact that the majority of the political opinions on this forum are in the minority in the general population, and becoming more so.
Some of it is bizarrely entertaining. The thing that I find odd is that the Beatles had that very positive message of "all you need is love" and so forth. I know it sounds naive, but when i was a teenager their music and that message was one of the few things that made me feel that people are all fundamentally good, the world is a great place and we can all contribute something positive to it. And I have continue to believe that to this day. So now I find that some of their most loyal fans are strident, narrowminded and borderline sociopathic. For example, did you see that for a while there was some guy named Audi who kept stating that white Republicans are "pig f__ers"? (By the way, i think that's grounds for cancelling his account. But there was so much of that sort of stuff going on that I guess the "peace in the neighborhood" rules are ignored.) Oh well. Not much to be done about that sort of behavior. Take care.
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[quote="beatlechick"][quote="jaipur"][quote="SurSteven"][quote="jaipur"][quote="SurSteven"][quote="jaipur"]The indians are restless on this reservation D The nonsense of deficits....there are "two" kinds, boys and girls...structural (that has existed for umpty dump years....known as social security, medicare) to which grandchildren and great grandchildren will pay) and budget deficits (unemployment). As long as Congress keeps jerking around regarding the Bush tax cuts, businesses CANNOT hire. Because when those cuts expire, companies will need the cash they are currently stashing to pay them This is not about democrats or republican philosophy....it's about where all of us (meaning myself, the wife and others I know) are....it is a little of both......us folks in the center wink So, if liberal philosophy is the leftwing philosophy...and republicanism is right hand philosophy...and democracy is the middle and mediating point of view that it always has been..........how does... halfway between the near right and the far right..........become the center? shock lol ...it's no wonder that working people are sadly laughing at you.... Working people didn't laugh at Bill Clinton or Tony Blair....both of whom governed from the center. It's no wonder people actually laugh at you instead as that simple fact never occurred to you. ) It is us folks in the center that swing elections. Not the extremes on either end. So, "you are" a Democrat!
D No I am not a democrat or a republican. One more time and do try and read for comprehension Clinton and Blair governed from the center (neither democrat or republican, nor labor or conservative). ps...please take it easy on the indians...they gave a lot more to this country than you did! shock idea ? Yes, where would we be without casinos?? D How ignorant. When was the last time you talked to Native Americans and called them indians? When was the last time you read about their various rich history and culture? They don't lose sight of who they are, where they came from like Americans have. There's good old Beatlechick again, showing her hypocrisy. Paul insults a former President at the Whitehouse with a rude and unfunny remark...its "free speech" and acceptable to her (not because she believes in free speech but because she can use the "free speech" card to defend an insult against a politician she despises) I write a non insulting, non offensive post simply stating my personal feelings about Pauls remark and I am subjected to all sorts of name calling "red neck", "racist" etc.. and told to get off the message board. Where was Beatlechick with her defense of my free speech rights? Where was Beatlechick to tell the name callers that they were "ignorant"? Answer.........NOWHERE.......Until I tried to defend myself from the attacks (without resorting to the same name calling) But somehow free speech did not apply to me....why??? Because I dared to express my opinion that it was not right for Paul to insult ANY.....repeat..... ANY President (but she looked at that as some sort of defense of Bush, rather than class and graciousness which was ALWAYS my point) So when I defended myself Beatlechick finally spoke up....against me....and in support of the name callers. Now she rides back into the boards on her high horse morally condemning another forum members remarks against native americans. Somehow I don't think Beatlechick would have been so upset if Jaipur was "ignorantly" bashing President Bush (or myself for that matter) But such is the life of a self righteous hypocrite. Carry on.
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Tallyho -- I can't tell whether people like that don't understand their own hypocricy or if they figure that if they're completly shameless and aggressive enough, they'll wear down their opponents. Either way, they are destined to fail in the grander scheme of things.
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[quote="EADG"]Tallyho -- I can't tell whether people like that don't understand their own hypocricy or if they figure that if they're completly shameless and aggressive enough, they'll wear down their opponents. Either way, they are destined to fail in the grander scheme of things. It's selective outrage. typical of the hypocrite. They never look at the big picture they only look at how the picture fits into their own little world. They then use their own personal beliefs and feelings to decide what is right or wrong but they don't have the guts to say that is what they are doing. So they hide behind morally superior terms (in their eyes) like "free speech" or "decency" or "kindness" to defend their opinion. But then moments later when they see something they disagree with then that person is not extended the same "decency" or right to an opinion. Its OK to attack and name call. As in my Whitehouse example. Had Paul or any other artist being honored chose that venue to insult President Obama I would have been just as offended and upset. And I am sure in that case Beatlechick would be behind me 100% But in her little world it is acceptable behavior because she dislikes the target of the insult. Just like when I was the target .....here on the forum for expressing my opinion....It was OK in her hypocritical eyes because I dared have an opinion contrary to hers. But then when I chose to defend myself then she saw fit to tell me to get off the board. She knows perfectly well that is exactly what happened and I am absolutely right....but remember a hypocrite can never admit they are wrong So its deny deny deny....play victim....or team up with other hypocrites on the forum to attack. So it's not a matter of them "not getting it" They do get it. But its alot easier for them to pretend they dont.
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gee
there
are
a
lot
of
quotes
that
don't
have
to
be
re-
quoted
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Tallyho:
EADG:
Tallyho -- I can't tell whether people like that don't understand their own hypocricy or if they figure that if they're completly shameless and aggressive enough, they'll wear down their opponents. Either way, they are destined to fail in the grander scheme of things.
It's selective outrage. typical of the hypocrite. They never look at the big picture they only look at how the picture fits into their own little world. They then use their own personal beliefs and feelings to decide what is right or wrong but they don't have the guts to say that is what they are doing. So they hide behind morally superior terms (in their eyes) like "free speech" or "decency" or "kindness" to defend their opinion. But then moments later when they see something they disagree with then that person is not extended the same "decency" or right to an opinion. Its OK to attack and name call. As in my Whitehouse example. Had Paul or any other artist being honored chose that venue to insult President Obama I would have been just as offended and upset. And I am sure in that case Beatlechick would be behind me 100% But in her little world it is acceptable behavior because she dislikes the target of the insult. Just like when I was the target .....here on the forum for expressing my opinion....It was OK in her hypocritical eyes because I dared have an opinion contrary to hers. But then when I chose to defend myself then she saw fit to tell me to get off the board. She knows perfectly well that is exactly what happened and I am absolutely right....but remember a hypocrite can never admit they are wrong So its deny deny deny....play victim....or team up with other hypocrites on the forum to attack. So it's not a matter of them "not getting it" They do get it. But its alot easier for them to pretend they dont.
So they go through life like that. Which is what is was referring to when i said that they will fail in the grander scheme of things. Don't worry about them. Live your life and enjoy it.
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Why do popular performers think that because people enjoy their music and buy their cd's that people really want to hear there idiotic political opinions? Case in point...Paul M. and his shameless Obama worship at the Whitehouse. Music bridges the gaps between social, political and ethnic bounderies. It unites people under a common banner. What in God's name made him think he should use it as a political soap box to put down one leader and to support the lunacy of Obama? The one thing that can erase all prejuduces and he had to pollute it with politics. What a creep. I used to be a fan...no more. Anyone abusing their celebrity to poison minds to their warpped beliefs is a creep. What do you want Paul...to turn America into another enslaved nation with only two classes of people...the ultra rich and the ultra poor? Obama is the problem...he is nothing but a lying cheat and a socialist pig. He is actively seeking to destroy America and you worship him. Just play music and unite people. Quit dividing them with your shameless ignorance. Keep your stupidity to yourself. Am I the only one who sees the insanity of his preaching the religion of Obamanation?
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YAWN........
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Why do popular performers think that because people enjoy their music and buy their cd's that people really want to hear there idiotic political opinions?
The same reason you think we want to hear your idiotic political opinions? Free speech, my friend. Just because they are celebrities doesn't mean they can't voice their opinions on the matter.
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Just play music and unite people. Quit dividing them with your shameless ignorance. Keep your stupidity to yourself.
Well if you're going on that notion, perhaps you should just listen to the music and quit whining with your shameless ignorance.
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Keep your stupidity to yourself.
And the same to you.
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Now, I would be very hard-pressed to say which President is/was worse - The Usurper Bush or the Sub-Moron Obama. However, it seems that the main thrust of your post is concern that the US not become a Two-Class State. If that is, indeed, the case, you better back up about 50 years - EVERY President since Eisenhower has advanced the agenda of the Rich and Powerful Elite over We The People. Don't buy the Republicrat bullshit. As for the Obama-Worship, I have to admit: I threw up a little in my mouth. But, I felt just as queasy when Elvis shined Nixon's ego. When it comes to Musicians and Politics, there is a long and honorable history of Musicians speaking out on perceived injustices and errors. Witness the Vietnam War and the multitude of Anti-War songs from the 60's. I believe the only reason there aren't more Anti-War songs in Our current war is because the Music Industry prefers to feed US pablum from Disney. If you're going to come away from this hating somebody, just make sure you're hating the right people. Hate the Politicians - hate the Depublicans and Republicrats - hate the Rich and Powerful Elite. Because ... while you're bent over killing the messenger ...