George's criticisms of Macca
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SusyLuvsPaul:
You can't just listen to Beatles music all the time, fantastic as it is. There's a longing for different and new music from these dynamic music genuises, Paul, John and George--bless them they've given that and John would have given more if able. It's a revelation and transcendent joy to discover a song from Paul and George (especially Paul) you've never heard before, to explore their entire ouevre. I appreciate these (for lack of a better word) novelties as much as Beatles music, in a different way. It's something different and new. (Ringo has some good music too.)
I agree, I seek out rare b sides and ultra rare material by the solo Beatles and or Beatles and a few other groups I like such as the WHO and Beach Boys... because I have listened to official canon so much, I Long to hear something fresh, McCartney still makes new albums. and I always get a kick at first was very pleased with his last three studio albums, good stuff Driving Rain I thought was horrid, but his wife had just died, and I thought, well at least he is working out his demons and recording. I dont understand why McCartneys current band is so so very good and the one album they got to play on all the tracks is so awful David Kahne maybe his fault anyway., I stick to my guns, for every ten great McCartney songs Harrison might only have three, but that smaller number are just as good. I think trying to be objective, I would say Brainwashed was a better album certainly than MAF< and probably even Chaos. But rather than compare, I would just say they are all really good albums. I wish I liked some other band as much as I like the Beatles and solo beatles, it would give me more to listen to Getting into the Kinks now to give me more to listen to, they were fantastic, but more one dimensional with just one singer And I am not a know it all by any means, I just know Harrisons best songs are as good as Len-Macs. there just aren't as many, and he wasn't as strong a lead vocalist, though charming in his own way. Supposedly, the new Scorsese documentary will have a couple of eye popping Harrison recordings from the Beatle era that no one has ever heard before. Which may end up leading credence to the idea, that he had a ton of good songs in the wings, in the Beatle era, perhaps going back to 65-66 and they just didint get recorded because of Len-Mac we may actually get to hear some of that unused stuff soon
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I'm just trying to figure out what prompts whobeatle to hit 'return' all the time when posting forming those columns if you will, all very interesting whobeatle, name me one George song as good as Hey Jude, Helter Skelter, Penny Lane, or Revolution, Day Tripper, Ticket To Ride, Live & Let Die, New York City, Whatever Gets You Thru The Night, Imagine, Band on the Run, Jet, Isolation/.. I actually cannot think of one better than any of those. Here Comes The Sun maybe better than Whatever Gets You Through the Night point is IMO his best are not as good as J&P's best.
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kapoo:
I'm just trying to figure out what prompts whobeatle to hit 'return' all the time when posting forming those columns if you will, all very interesting whobeatle, name me one George song as good as Hey Jude, Helter Skelter, Penny Lane, or Revolution, Day Tripper, Ticket To Ride, Live & Let Die, New York City, Whatever Gets You Thru The Night, Imagine, Band on the Run, Jet, Isolation/.. I actually cannot think of one better than any of those. Here Comes The Sun maybe better than Whatever Gets You Through the Night point is IMO his best are not as good as J&P's best.
the better thing to do is look at J&P's bad songs.. neither wrote a song where you (or at least I) can listen to it and not find something awesome about it, or something that points at their ridiculous talent and knack for crafting songs. George's (and a lot of artists) bad songs are quite average. J&P sort of stopped writing bad songs around 1965. and their best are timeless.
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I can't name them, but I've heard various tracks from all George's solo albums that really knocked me out, that I'd never heard before His time of being underestimated won't last forever!! Harrison's very last cd "Brainwashed" knocked me on my a--s, it's sooooooooooooo mindblowingly fantastic
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kapoo:
I'm just trying to figure out what prompts whobeatle to hit 'return' all the time when posting forming those columns if you will, all very interesting whobeatle, name me one George song as good as Hey Jude, Helter Skelter, Penny Lane, or Revolution, Day Tripper, Ticket To Ride, Live & Let Die, New York City, Whatever Gets You Thru The Night, Imagine, Band on the Run, Jet, Isolation/.. I actually cannot think of one better than any of those. Here Comes The Sun maybe better than Whatever Gets You Through the Night point is IMO his best are not as good as J&P's best.
It boils down to taste. A lot of George songs that I love are not the ones people talk about. The Art of Dying. Out of the Blue. (My favorite song ever!) I remember Jeep. HOrse to Water. Let it Roll. Beware of Darkness (the version sung by Joe Brown at Concert for George is fantastic). I listen to those songs more frequently then any of the ones you mentioned. It's just my personal taste.
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It is about tastes, I listen to solo George over and over daily, I love the depth of feeling in what he says. He was so wise and humble, and his music so melodic! I have one Lennon solo CD, which I love when I'm in the mood for it. I need to aquaint myself with Paul's and Ringo's solo work, I'm in no position to say one way or the other there. Some of Ringo's work I do listen to on youtube if George was somehow involved in it.
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lazydynamite88:
how long before the obigatory 'they were all equal,all four parts.nobody is more important than the other' mince for my money i will define the beatles in percentages. i will not include managers/producers though.. 4th .ringo 5%.[a decent drummer who played his supporting role well] 3rd. george 10%[a good basic guitarist who ended up writing a couple of great songs.shame his bitterness got in the way at the end. 2nd.john 40%[the bands formal leader and undoubted genius.amazing songwriter and effective vocalist.used his rivalry with 'mac' in the tunesmith dept to maximum effect.impossible to imagine the beatles without him] 1st.paul 45%.[often overlooked how important his gift for melody was to the band.pushed the best out of lennon.worked his balls off.amazing singer.great all round musical talent.the songs that he wrote are the main difference between the beatles still being head and shoulders above any other artists.pushed the best out of 'lennon' which was equally important.
I couldn't agree with this more. Although I might make Ringo and George a bit more equal. Maybe 7% Ringo, for his personality and persona which helped tremendously in the beginning, and 8% for George, his main contribution, imo was having the same sensibilities as Paul and John and being driven enough to want to learn to play guitar,something that didn't come all that naturally to him.
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These threads remind me of Fox News or MSNBC one far left the other far right, and no one ever changes their minds, or revises their opinions on those channels, I can see I am not going to change peoples minds through discussion here.. If people want to believe, Lazy Dynamite or Mary Had a little Lamb are great songs and records, no amount of discussion will change that. I think most post Beatle solo albums, have several good songs on them and some mediocre ones. There are some exceptions, Ringo's Ringo album Band on The Run, Imagine, ATMP, Brainwashed. Chaos, Flaming Pie I don't think people are interested in poring over the solo catalogues and actually listening to all the songs! Some people here are hip to all the songs and have reasoned opinions based on being familiar with the work.. But I think many of the people saying Harrisons work was just mediocre, are saying that without actually being familiar with it. I do object to this whole notion of McCartney was the Beatles I think Lennon said in the Playboy interview shortly before his murder paraphrasing from Memory "People think Paul was king Beatle, but it was me" end quote I'm tired of defending the quality of Harrisons abilities, too time consuming, and worse, not one person is gonna change their mind Hopefully maybe one or two people will actually, be given pause and actually listen to some of his work before entering judgement Luckily we haven't gotten into lyrics so much as melody, but then again many people hear may not be that concerned with the lyrics to songs beyond the hook I Love this place because there are so many threads
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If we are discussing post beatle work, I would say Ram is the best post beatle album. I would also go as far to say that Monkberry Moon Delight is Paul's best vocal. Infact, Im going to listen to this album on the the way to work!
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whobeatle...based on your tastes I would highly recommend the band XTC to you if you're not hip to them. They had 2 songwriters, 1 of whom is an absolute genius. Mind you, he's no Lennon/McCartney but (all together now) no shame in that, nobody is. I guess Nonesuch would probably be a great album to start with if you're starting out...took me quite a few spins to get into the singers voice, but the lyrics are impossibly good and the melodies and variety and vision are stellar as well. This thread must be very frustrating for you as passionate as you are, but you've taken it all in stride and handled it well IMO. I think that the point I differ on with you is that I believe that it is the scope and volume of Lennon/McCartney's songwriting that are a testament to their superiority. Almost every serious writer has a great song or two in them...this is why there are so many one-hit-wonders. To write classic after classic and hit after hit after hit while constantly evolving and pushing the envelope of pop music is what distinguishes John & Paul from all others. Some of Paul's lyrics may be a bit daft, but look at all the approaches he takes and how many experiments turned into gold. Many of his lyrics are deceptively simple and harder to appreciate but he really takes a back seat to very few in this regard...just try it and you'll see. And of course, Lennon's gift of wordplay and imagination are otherworldly, emotive and unique. Harrison is more of a confessional type songwriter, whereas Paul is more of a painter...evoking myriad scenes of everyday life with a few brilliant strokes...a lot harder to master.
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Oh and melody.... Nobody has even come close to Paul McCartney...the greatest melodic talent of the century! Lennon's behind him. Paul Simon is a not so close third.
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Blue Ruins:
Oh and melody.... Nobody has even come close to Paul McCartney...the greatest melodic talent of the century! Lennon's behind him. Paul Simon is a not so close third.
Blue, Dylan even gushed over Macca's melodic gifts last year in aRolling Stone interview..He's is truly Mr Melody!!!
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Now we are really getting off subject l'll nominate Tim Finn can sit at the same table.
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Blue Ruins:
Oh and melody.... Nobody has even come close to Paul McCartney...the greatest melodic talent of the century! Lennon's behind him. Paul Simon is a not so close third.
I consider Paul Simon a genius and even more of an inspiration to my life then Paul or the Beatles but I always associated his strong points with his lyrics which are the most incredible I've ever heard in English.
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Brain Wilson deserves a seat at the all-time melodist table as well. Say (and this guy deserves a thread of his own, and some recognition in general), any one familiar with the name Max Martin? he's a songsmith who wrote the key hits of pop acts like Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, and the list goes on.. the guys no doubt a genius. I have no idea how many #1's he's written overall, in excess of 20 easily I'm guessing. anyone know the answer to that one? he's scary. beatlish in terms of his writing success. and no one knows him lol check him out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin
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dear 'whobeatle'. amongst your many many quite repetative and boring posts on this subject you wrote... "Driving Rain I thought was horrid". well your entitled to your opinion but your talking shite. if this is the kind of shitty opinion you are offering then why should any of your other opinions be valid. you see 'driving rain' is not 'horrid'. some people love it [me included] and some people are not so keen.ive never heard a socalled mccartney fan member describe any of his albums as 'horrid'. to be honest im sure that quote is right out of the george harrison handbook. believe me ,there are many 'weak' george harrison collections but im sure nobody on here have described them as 'horrid'. anyway 'driving rain' is better than anything solo george could muster full stop.even 'all things must pass' is completely overated and should never have been a double album!. lets face it 'harrison ' was washed up by the mid 1970s FULL STOP. i did love him but if im honest he was a decent guitarist,hit n miss songwriter,average beatle .
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kapoo:
Brain Wilson deserves a seat at the all-time melodist table as well. Say (and this guy deserves a thread of his own, and some recognition in general), any one familiar with the name Max Martin? he's a songsmith who wrote the key hits of pop acts like Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, and the list goes on.. the guys no doubt a genius. I have no idea how many #1's he's written overall, in excess of 20 easily I'm guessing. anyone know the answer to that one? he's scary. beatlish in terms of his writing success. and no one knows him lol check him out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin
what next, Stock, Aitken & Waterman?
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I'm a bit late on the discussion, but I'd like to give my two cents. No matter how much I read about how Paul and George spent hours talking and holding hands before he died, nothing convinces me that George passed away in good terms with Paul. Well, he was about to die... of course they would share one last moment together, forgetting about the differences. But what if George had been killed unexpectedly, like John? As we all know, George spent the 70s bitching about Paul's albums and about how they'd never play together again. Fine. Maybe that was supposed to change after John's death, right? Maybe they'd realize life was very short and there was no time for fussing and fighting. I don't know about Paul, since he was always so diplomatic and never said shit about anyone in the press (that's a fact, whether you think he was being phony or not), but I clearly remember George saying that Paul had ran out of good songs of his own and hadn't attended the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame cerimony to "show off". I wish I could find the video. That was about 15 years after the Beatles broke up. And then comes the Anthology. Honestly, you only don't see how unconfortable George and Paul were around each other if you don't want to. 25 years after the break-up. I think it's sooo weird. I mean, Eric Clapton stole George's wife, for God's sake. And they remained in good terms. What the heck did Paul do to justify such bitterness from George? Was it still because his songs were not taken seriously back in 68/69, even though John was also to blame for it? I wonder if there was something more serious going on between Paul and George. I must say that George's behaviour annoys me a little, since he claimed to be so spiritual and all that. Sorry, I love him, but I have to be honest.
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lazydynamite88:
dear 'whobeatle'. amongst your many many quite repetative and boring posts on this subject you wrote... "Driving Rain I thought was horrid". well your entitled to your opinion but your talking shite. if this is the kind of sh**ty opinion you are offering then why should any of your other opinions be valid. you see 'driving rain' is not 'horrid'. some people love it [me included] and some people are not so keen.ive never heard a socalled mccartney fan member describe any of his albums as 'horrid'. to be honest im sure that quote is right out of the george harrison handbook. believe me ,there are many 'weak' george harrison collections but im sure nobody on here have described them as 'horrid'. anyway 'driving rain' is better than anything solo george could muster full stop.even 'all things must pass' is completely overated and should never have been a double album!. lets face it 'harrison ' was washed up by the mid 1970s FULL STOP. i did love him but if im honest he was a decent guitarist,hit n miss songwriter,average beatle .
Hm. As much as I agree with you about Driving Rain, I disagree that Harrison was washed up by the mid-70s. His 1979 self-titled album is a rather splendid piece of work, and let's not forget that the released version of Somewhere In England was a pale imitation of the album that George originally had in mind (and indeed recorded) due to idiotic interference from his label. It's true that Gone Troppo represents a dip in quality, despite some absolutely lovely songs on there (Mystical One). Cloud 9 sounds dated in that 80s sort of way, but still has some vintage Harrison high points (Is This Love, Someplace Else). Lastly, Brainwashed, despite being bookended by very poor opening and closing tracks, is a spectacular return to form after a few years away from it all. All in all, I'm very happy with Harrison's solo output, and would rate it above Lennon's. My one main gripe is his choice of producer, Lynne, who, to my mind, was a one trick pony. He seemed to encourage George's obsession with weeping guitar sounds, rather than the elegant short bursts he favoured in his Beatle days. George's solo back catalogue is mystifying, intriguing and, in some pithy way, quite tragic - I would advise anyone and everyone to listen carefully and repeatedly to all his albums; there are undiscovered gems everywhere.
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Blue Ruins:
whobeatle...based on your tastes I would highly recommend the band XTC to you if you're not hip to them. They had 2 songwriters, 1 of whom is an absolute genius. Mind you, he's no Lennon/McCartney but (all together now) no shame in that, nobody is. I guess Nonesuch would probably be a great album to start with if you're starting out...took me quite a few spins to get into the singers voice, but the lyrics are impossibly good and the melodies and variety and vision are stellar as well. This thread must be very frustrating for you as passionate as you are, but you've taken it all in stride and handled it well IMO. I think that the point I differ on with you is that I believe that it is the scope and volume of Lennon/McCartney's songwriting that are a testament to their superiority. Almost every serious writer has a great song or two in them...this is why there are so many one-hit-wonders. To write classic after classic and hit after hit after hit while constantly evolving and pushing the envelope of pop music is what distinguishes John & Paul from all others. Some of Paul's lyrics may be a bit daft, but look at all the approaches he takes and how many experiments turned into gold. Many of his lyrics are deceptively simple and harder to appreciate but he really takes a back seat to very few in this regard...just try it and you'll see. And of course, Lennon's gift of wordplay and imagination are otherworldly, emotive and unique. Harrison is more of a confessional type songwriter, whereas Paul is more of a painter...evoking myriad scenes of everyday life with a few brilliant strokes...a lot harder to master.
Yeah I love XTC, just superb. I prefer the second half of their career, when their records became more layered and produced, from Skylarking onward. I guess Partridge has some sort of physical or emotional problem that prevents him from working now. Moudling doesn't want to reunite with him either sadly. I think they rivaled the Beatles briefly , but their songs were a little too complex maybe, to be commercial Yes I agree Lennon and McCartney are superior to Harrison as songwriters in the sense that,, they were more prolific, particularly McCartney. I think McCartney releases a lot of so so songs.. But I buy them anyway because I like everything he does, or The WHO or Dylan or the Kinks or Brian Wilson. None of them ever do anything as good as what they did years ago, but I still like their work better than anybody elses. Usually. Mostly I come to these forums looking for news on upcoming releases or information on unreleased material. Occasionally I get sucked into a thread. I try and stay out of the mythology of Lennon the martyr or McCartney the "real" genius of the Beatles, I Just think they made records that I enjoy more than anyone else in history. I dont know how many kids Ringo has or What McCartneys kids do for a living, or Dhani Harrisons new album. I dont care about that, I just care about the great music the Beatles made and some of the great solo music they made. I still believe Harrison is given some short shrift, here and in general I think when he wanted to be, he had his moments every bit as brilliant as Lennon or McCartney, I'm glad McCartney has taken a lot of time and care on his Chaos and MAF albums, and on Flaming Pie, I think his solo albums turn out better when he has good people and takes his time. Ironically in the Beatles they worked very quickly, but perhaps as a solo in his late sixties, he is better off polishing the work more carefully I think its important to remember Harrison didin't want to write hit songs and be a public recording artist all the time, if he had so desired, I am sure he could have knocked off another half a dozen albums and written another half dozen hits, I think he had to be in the mood much like Lennon later in his life.. I think its a mistake to think, just because Harrison didint release more work, that he couldnt have. Apparently there are hundreds of songs in his archives. Even Lennon as it turns out...all the claims of how he didint write songs for five years before double fantasy is not true..it turns out he had at least two dozen songs from his so called retirement period. I would say though, hands down McCartney is the most commercial Beatle at least through around 1990 or so. But when Lennon was in the mood he could craft an Instant Karma or Starting over in two days or less. Same With Harrison, when he felt like it.. I think Harrison after all his success as a Beatle and a solo, felt less driven to keep proving it again. Brainwashed is a heck of an album, very very strong, except for a few weak vocals done after his cancer surgeries. Even so very poignant,