Was V&M another near miss for Macca?
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favoritething:
Bruce M.:
favoritething:
audi:
Genre-wise, I don't see much distinction between the two.
Me neither, to be honest.
If anything, V&M has more of a rock edge to it than BOTR.
Yes, certainly when you look at the blistering guitar of "Medicine Jar" and "Letting Go," and the rawness of "Call Me Back Again."
To me, V&M almost sounds like it was intended to support a tour...I know Paul has made similar comments about later albums (especially Flowers in the Dirt and Off the Ground)...this had the same feel (despite all three albums having completely different feels to them). As good as anyone wants to play up BOTR, my first thought listening to it wasn't 'oh man, this album was made to tour with'...It(kinda) was with V&M
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rich n:
favoritething:
Bruce M.:
favoritething:
audi:
Genre-wise, I don't see much distinction between the two.
Me neither, to be honest.
If anything, V&M has more of a rock edge to it than BOTR.
Yes, certainly when you look at the blistering guitar of "Medicine Jar" and "Letting Go," and the rawness of "Call Me Back Again."
To me, V&M almost sounds like it was intended to support a tour...I know Paul has made similar comments about later albums (especially Flowers in the Dirt and Off the Ground)...this had the same feel (despite all three albums having completely different feels to them). As good as anyone wants to play up BOTR, my first thought listening to it wasn't 'oh man, this album was made to tour with'...It(kinda) was with V&M
richn, definitely has that feel to it. Not a bad thing at all. The other night was probably my first time listening to the album as a whole in awhile.
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rich n:
favoritething:
Bruce M.:
favoritething:
audi:
Genre-wise, I don't see much distinction between the two.
Me neither, to be honest.
If anything, V&M has more of a rock edge to it than BOTR.
Yes, certainly when you look at the blistering guitar of "Medicine Jar" and "Letting Go," and the rawness of "Call Me Back Again."
To me, V&M almost sounds like it was intended to support a tour...I know Paul has made similar comments about later albums (especially Flowers in the Dirt and Off the Ground)...this had the same feel (despite all three albums having completely different feels to them). As good as anyone wants to play up BOTR, my first thought listening to it wasn't 'oh man, this album was made to tour with'...It(kinda) was with V&M
Absolutely yes!
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Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
I kind of agree with you, only to the point that V&M was played out by that time (but "Rock Show" was not a flop: #12 in the U.S. was not too shabby, really). I think you're right that Paul wanted fresh material, and they only had a brief window to get a new album together before the next tour dates, so they grabbed the chance. I think he also wanted to solidify the bonds of the new lineup, which wasn't completely together on V&M. AND he wanted a more professional-sounding album, done at Abbey Road, vs. the ad hoc recording setup of the previous two albums.
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beatlesfanrandy:
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Which is part of the point I was making. The tour succeeded because Paul is Paul. Its success was not due to Venus and Mars. By 1976 Speed of Sound had surpassed Venus and Mars and had become the tour album, even the album cover design denotes that. And Paul did this because he recognised Venus and Mars just hadn't cut it as *the* tour album. With the two monster hits of Silly Love Songs and Let Em In, everything changed. Furthermore - I don't see either Rockshow or Letting Go on Wings Greatest or All the Best, which gives you some idea of Paul's opinion of them as having disappointed.
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Squid:
beatlesfanrandy:
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Which is part of the point I was making. The tour succeeded because Paul is Paul. Its success was not due to Venus and Mars. By 1976 Speed of Sound had surpassed Venus and Mars and had become the tour album, even the album cover design denotes that. And Paul did this because he recognised Venus and Mars just hadn't cut it as *the* tour album. With the two monster hits of Silly Love Songs and Let Em In, everything changed. Furthermore - I don't see either Rockshow or Letting Go on Wings Greatest or All the Best, which gives you some idea of Paul's opinion of them as having disappointed.
"Listen To What The Man Said" (a #1 hit) wasn't on Wings Greatest. What does THAT say about his disappointment?
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favoritething:
"Listen To What The Man Said" (a #1 hit) wasn't on Wings Greatest. What does THAT say about his disappointment?
It was on All the Best. And the fact it wasn't on Wings Greatest suggests to me that he wanted to forget all about Venus and Mars for a while.
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Squid:
favoritething:
"Listen To What The Man Said" (a #1 hit) wasn't on Wings Greatest. What does THAT say about his disappointment?
It was on All the Best. And the fact it wasn't on Wings Greatest suggests to me that he wanted to forget all about Venus and Mars for a while.
Perhaps, but still he did do almost the entire V&M album on the 1976 U.S. tour, after SOS was already out and only being represented by four of its songs.
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favoritething:
Squid:
favoritething:
"Listen To What The Man Said" (a #1 hit) wasn't on Wings Greatest. What does THAT say about his disappointment?
It was on All the Best. And the fact it wasn't on Wings Greatest suggests to me that he wanted to forget all about Venus and Mars for a while.
Perhaps, but still he did do almost the entire V&M album on the 1976 U.S. tour, after SOS was already out and only being represented by four of its songs.
Exactly! I think this comment pretty much sums up that McCartney knew exactly what he was doing in 1976 and that V&M was a successful LP to tour behind and it was a smashing successful tour.
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When I originally wrote this post, I never was thinking that V&M (as well as SOS) was not successful. All Three albums (including BOTR) were the absolute zenith of his career. When you add Wings Over America to these 3 to finish it off, it was total vindication for Paul against the critics and even his former Bandmates who were all at various times rough on him. The music business is so fickle that it is very rare that an artist can dominate twice in his/her career like he did in the 60's and then in the mid-70's. My theory on the near miss of V&M was far more from a critical point of view. I guess frustrated when you see Greatest Album Polls (i.e. RollingStone 500 Poll) and Paul only has one on the list (BOTR) and that gets listed I believe in the 400's. I just think Paul should have had more. I really think that Wings Over America should be on the list. I think that Frampton Live is pretty high on the List. That being the case, shouldn't WOA be considered. I also think that Tug of War and Flaming Pie should be on the list (at least on the back end). Anyway just a thought. I guess the bigger question (not so much about V&M and SOS) is what happen to the momentum that Paul had built after the hugely successful US tour. There just didn't seem to be any kind of buzz with London Town and espcially Back to the Egg. Obviously the fickle aspect of the business came into play with the disco craze. I really like Back to the Egg. Shame Paull didn't put the single on "Egg" I forget the A side by the B side was the glorious Daytime-Nightime Suffering. Any thoughts on just what killed London Town and Back to the Egg.
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B J Conlee:
When I originally wrote this post, I never was thinking that V&M (as well as SOS) was not successful. All Three albums (including BOTR) were the absolute zenith of his career. When you add Wings Over America to these 3 to finish it off, it was total vindication for Paul against the critics and even his former Bandmates who were all at various times rough on him. The music business is so fickle that it is very rare that an artist can dominate twice in his/her career like he did in the 60's and then in the mid-70's. My theory on the near miss of V&M was far more from a critical point of view. I guess frustrated when you see Greatest Album Polls (i.e. RollingStone 500 Poll) and Paul only has one on the list (BOTR) and that gets listed I believe in the 400's. I just think Paul should have had more. I really think that Wings Over America should be on the list. I think that Frampton Live is pretty high on the List. That being the case, shouldn't WOA be considered. I also think that Tug of War and Flaming Pie should be on the list (at least on the back end). Anyway just a thought. I guess the bigger question (not so much about V&M and SOS) is what happen to the momentum that Paul had built after the hugely successful US tour. There just didn't seem to be any kind of buzz with London Town and espcially Back to the Egg. Obviously the fickle aspect of the business came into play with the disco craze. I really like Back to the Egg. Shame Paull didn't put the single on "Egg" I forget the A side by the B side was the glorious Daytime-Nightime Suffering. Any thoughts on just what killed London Town and Back to the Egg.
Goodnight Tonight was the A-side. I agree with what you are saying and I suspect most fans will too. I remember in 1978 being very excited, as I had lived through the whole WOA tour and live LP. Mull of Kyntire came out, and though Girls School was very promising, it was not a hit. Mull was and it was an acoustic folk tune, hardly something to tour around. I thought a new LP and a tour would follow. Things got shaky when Joe English and Jimmy McCullough quit Wings. I remember London Town coming out and thinking, while it was great, it did not seem to ROCK for an arena tour. With A Little Luck was good, but kind of light. The video showed Paul, Linda and Denny, and a new drummer. But no guitar player. That did not put confidence in me about a tour. Back to the Egg was a really great return to form, but I always though it a bit strange when Wings toured the UK in 1979, they played theaters and a much shorter set list than in 1976. I think it was to "break in" the two new band members, Laurence Juber and Steve Holly. Egg was not received well by the critics, if I remember correctly. Then the Japan bust, and that was that. No more tour. No more Wings. I think, the near miss was actually London Town and then Back To The Egg. Had the 76 line up of Wings stayed intact, and London Town rocked a bit more (maybe have Girls School on it) followed by an arena tour in 1979, things may have been harder rocking and less slick production for Paul and Wings. Even Goodnight Tonight was not much of a tune to slay audiences with in an arena setting. Not if you are competing with The Stones and Led Zep and KISS, the arena giants of that time period.
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I think that after the drug bust and then John's murder, Paul & Linda just decided to stay home and raise their kids, which was probably a wise move. (unfortunate for the fans though)
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Nancy R:
I think that after the drug bust and then John's murder, Paul & Linda just decided to stay home and raise their kids, which was probably a wise move. (unfortunate for the fans though)
Yeah there's that too. But what I laid out above was already in play before that terrible event (John's murder).
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Personally, I think V&M is extremely overrated (at least by Macca fans) & cant hold a candle to BOTR, song-for-song. 'Listen to What the Man Said' is definitely catchy but its lightweight. I like 'Call me Back Again'. But the rest of the album is very bland & the production too dense to grab the listener. BOTR has an immediate feel to it & the best melodies Macca has ever written , including when he was with his other band.
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I think Letting Go is heavier than anything on BOTR. So is Rock Show.
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"Venus and Mars" is not one of my favorites from Macca
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beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
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Bruce M.:
beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
^^^I agree but sort of disagree at the same time...kind of chicken/egg argument. There's no doubt Paul's music sold well in the 70's and I personally believe it was deserved. However, there used to be a lot of discussion regarding the theory that Paul's albums sold because he was a former Beatle. All the former Beatles albums sold well, at least in the first half of that decade. And remember, the opportunity to really 'grab' the feel/quality of a new album ahead of time was not what it is these days...while a few sample songs were sent out to DJs ahead of time to help with the pre-release promotion, you largely bought on blind instinct that Paul's new album would bring some satisfaction along with the trust of some publication's review. Just my .02...but to your point, the way the charts reflected 'success' often depicted some level of 'curve' as the albums became more and more in the public's favor (not like nowadays where the ascent to the top of the charts is almost immediate and if it doesn't shoot into the top 10 in the first week or two, forget about it)
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I think there is a lot of historical revisionism going on here. McCartney in the 70s was quite a different entity than in the current time. People were not all that nostalgic for the Beatles in the mid 70s. It was only five years since the break up, and McCartney was actually fighting cynical critics and struggled to establish himself as an artist separate from the Beatles. Even Wings was billed as such in 1976, not as Paul McCartney and Wings. To be fair, there was a certain amount of anticipation for a BEATLES reunion. But McCartney on his own was just that. And people knew it when they bought his LPs and went to his shows back then. To say people went to see him in 1976 only to hear a few Beatles songs or people bought his music merely because he was a Beatle really misses what it was ACTUALLY like back then. In 1976, people were going to hear Wings play songs off of SOS, Venus and Mars, and BOTR. LPs that made up the bulk of his set list. It is NOW that people go see him because of his Beatles past. It just was not the case back in the mid 70s.
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Bruce M.:
beatlesfanrandy:
Squid:
RMartinez:
McCartney was already a name brand when he toured in 1976, so he was going to do well. He also happened to have a hit LP, Venus and Mars, on the market and a new hit LP, Speed of Sound, in the wings, so to speak. EXCELLENT marketing on his part. But I never read ANYWHERE that he recorded and released SOS because V&M was doing poorly. That's just ridiculous. Provide a citation please. You just can't make things up and act like it is an actual fact.
Er, I think you'll find Venus and Mars was gone from the charts by the time he reached America. It was not on the market - Speed of Sound was on the market. So I don't have to "prove" anything, I'm simply stating the facts. You are the one attempting to attribute the success of the tour to an album that was no longer in the charts.
He would have sold out that tour on his name alone. It was not the material from either album people were going to see. Then, as now, it was the chance to see him play a few Beatles' songs live.
Completely wrong. Paul/Wings were a huge commercial act in the mid-70s and were generally considered to be in a tie with Elton John as the planet's top pop music act. Listen to What the Man Said was #1 in the U.S. and got saturation airplay, but by the time the tour hit the U.S. (delayed about 3 months because Jimmy broke his finger) the album was a year old and had run its course commercially (and, as I noted earlier, an album a year was standard for most artists then). But it was a big success and fans loved it -- and it showed in their reactions when they played songs from V&M. Remember, they opened with Venus and Mars in almost total darkness, then launched into Rock Show and the lights came up -- and the audience went absolutely, totally nuts. In '76, Paul would have had no trouble selling out basketball arenas even if there wasn't a single Beatles song in his set list.
I was there and I don't agree. People on line were there to see the Beatle. They came away knowing Wings. But the biggest cheer was for Yesterday.