Paul - GRAMMY 2013
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Honestly, some days I prefer SMiLE to Sgt Pepper, never-mind RAM!
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MaccaBeatles:
Honestly, some days I prefer SMiLE to Sgt Pepper, never-mind RAM!
Seriously. that Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations/SMiLE thing that started happening was pretty intense. Must have been I should say, not like I was alive missed it by like 10yrs but feel like I was there for petessake
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love2travel:
Michelley:
PAUL JUST WON A GRAMMY FOR KOTB!!!!!! OK, so he should have won for Ram, and half of you hate KOTB, but I'm among those who love it, so I'm happy to see it recognized.
YAY!!!!!! I'm so happy as well, I think he really deserves it and have been praying that he wins, and in yet another category of music... just wonderful
I didn't watch the Grammys so did someone accept the Grammy on his behalf or was it done before the show?
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Congratulatons Paul!
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Congratulations for winning at the Grammys Paul!
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beatlefan46:
love2travel:
Michelley:
PAUL JUST WON A GRAMMY FOR KOTB!!!!!! OK, so he should have won for Ram, and half of you hate KOTB, but I'm among those who love it, so I'm happy to see it recognized.
YAY!!!!!! I'm so happy as well, I think he really deserves it and have been praying that he wins, and in yet another category of music... just wonderful
I didn't watch the Grammys so did someone accept the Grammy on his behalf or was it done before the show?
Paul's Grammy win was in the pre-telecast and not the televised show.
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Edith_gdl:
Awesoman:
Michelley:
By the way, I just saw on Twitter that Brian Wilson was at the Grammys in person to accept his award for Best Historical Album. It helps that he lives in LA. But that must have been a nice moment for him. Really, there was no way that -- given his long history of emotional problems and the long saga of the Smile sessions -- the Grammy voters were going to give that award to anyone but him. That said, I think that Ram is every bit the masterpiece that Smile is.
RAM is a fine album, but SMiLE is easily the real masterpiece here. The depth of the music on there is truly mind-blowing.
RAM... fine? sorry but I disagree. That album and Band on the run made me fell in love with Paul's music. It's just delicious.
Just trying to be objective here. SMiLE is a legendary album which demonstrated Brian Wilson at his peak. The depth of the production and songwriting is unmatched. The concepts introduced in this album broke a lot of ground and the fact that it never was finished catapulted it to legendary status. Does this mean that RAM or Band On The Run are bad albums? Of course not; they're amongst McCartney's best post-Beatles work. But to try and suggest that they are somehow on par with SMiLE is a ridiculous comparison. SMiLE was immaculate for a number of reasons; I don't believe either of Paul's albums mentioned ever achieved that status. But to each his own.
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kapoo:
MaccaBeatles:
Honestly, some days I prefer SMiLE to Sgt Pepper, never-mind RAM!
Seriously. that Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations/SMiLE thing that started happening was pretty intense. Must have been I should say, not like I was alive missed it by like 10yrs but feel like I was there for petessake
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
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Bruce M.:
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
Well I agree with you on the second sentence. But you're absolutely wrong on the first. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who appreciates Smile could not also appreciate Ram. Both albums are in the same creative vein. Actually it was Pet Sounds -- NOT Smile -- that broke a lot of ground production wise and musically. Brian Wilson developed his unique studio production methods by the time he made Pet Sounds, he perfected them on Pet Sounds, and just continued them on Smile. Good Vibrations, for example, is considered part of Smile but was recorded during the Pet Sounds period (with lyrics by Mike Love). And it was Pet Sounds that people said was the height of songwriting (and it should be noted that Brian Wilson didn't write any of the lyrics on either album, they were written by several lyricists). People were expecting great things in the wake of Pet Sounds. But Smile ended up being this half-finished album that was unreleased for decades and drove Brian to the brink, and, so, developed an aura and mystery about it as the "most famous unreleased album ever." Myth counts for a lot in rock and roll. Meanwhile, Ram had attracted a different "myth." It had been ripped apart by critics back then for reasons entirely unrelated to the music and entirely related to critics being pissed off at Paul for suing his bandmates. So over the years, Smile's reputation got a bit overinflated and I think Pet Sounds gradually became a bit under-rated, and Ram was really under-rated. Some people can't let go of those myths. Fortunately, others can. And last year, we saw critic after critic praise the Ram reissue, give it stellar reviews, and place it in its rightful place among great classic albums. Is Smile better than Ram? I don't know: Is chocolate ice cream better than chocolate chip? That's just a personal choice. They're both genius albums. I do think Brian Wilson deserved the Grammy -- believe it or not, I read that he's only won TWO in his life. So it was nice to see him honored. But he was awarded that Grammy as much for sentimental reasons as for the music. Ram would have deserved that Grammy, too -- not saying that Ram is better than Smile. Just that it was equally deserving.
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Michelley:
Bruce M.:
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
Well I agree with you on the second sentence. But you're absolutely wrong on the first. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who appreciates Smile could not also appreciate Ram. Both albums are in the same creative vein. Actually it was Pet Sounds -- NOT Smile -- that broke a lot of ground production wise and musically. Brian Wilson developed his unique studio production methods by the time he made Pet Sounds, he perfected them on Pet Sounds, and just continued them on Smile. Good Vibrations, for example, is considered part of Smile but was recorded during the Pet Sounds period (with lyrics by Mike Love). And it was Pet Sounds that people said was the height of songwriting (and it should be noted that Brian Wilson didn't write any of the lyrics on either album, they were written by several lyricists). People were expecting great things in the wake of Pet Sounds. But Smile ended up being this half-finished album that was unreleased for decades and drove Brian to the brink, and, so, developed an aura and mystery about it as the "most famous unreleased album ever." Myth counts for a lot in rock and roll. Meanwhile, Ram had attracted a different "myth." It had been ripped apart by critics back then for reasons entirely unrelated to the music and entirely related to critics being pissed off at Paul for suing his bandmates. So over the years, Smile's reputation got a bit overinflated and I think Pet Sounds gradually became a bit under-rated, and Ram was really under-rated. Some people can't let go of those myths. Fortunately, others can. And last year, we saw critic after critic praise the Ram reissue, give it stellar reviews, and place it in its rightful place among great classic albums. Is Smile better than Ram? I don't know: Is chocolate ice cream better than chocolate chip? That's just a personal choice. They're both genius albums. I do think Brian Wilson deserved the Grammy -- believe it or not, I read that he's only won TWO in his life. So it was nice to see him honored. But he was awarded that Grammy as much for sentimental reasons as for the music. Ram would have deserved that Grammy, too -- not saying that Ram is better than Smile. Just that it was equally deserving.
I believe that for most voters, it came down to the Beach Boys versus one Beatle. Who they gonna' vote for? Even if they actually didn't do a "proper" comparison of the merits of "Smile" and "Ram"...which most who voted probably didn't even bother with. That's the reality of such things and how/why people vote for whatever. They're not going to let the Beach Boys lose to just one Beatle. That's how they voted. IMO.
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Michelley:
Bruce M.:
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
Well I agree with you on the second sentence. But you're absolutely wrong on the first. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who appreciates Smile could not also appreciate Ram. Both albums are in the same creative vein. Actually it was Pet Sounds -- NOT Smile -- that broke a lot of ground production wise and musically. Brian Wilson developed his unique studio production methods by the time he made Pet Sounds, he perfected them on Pet Sounds, and just continued them on Smile. Good Vibrations, for example, is considered part of Smile but was recorded during the Pet Sounds period (with lyrics by Mike Love). And it was Pet Sounds that people said was the height of songwriting (and it should be noted that Brian Wilson didn't write any of the lyrics on either album, they were written by several lyricists). People were expecting great things in the wake of Pet Sounds. But Smile ended up being this half-finished album that was unreleased for decades and drove Brian to the brink, and, so, developed an aura and mystery about it as the "most famous unreleased album ever." Myth counts for a lot in rock and roll. Meanwhile, Ram had attracted a different "myth." It had been ripped apart by critics back then for reasons entirely unrelated to the music and entirely related to critics being pissed off at Paul for suing his bandmates. So over the years, Smile's reputation got a bit overinflated and I think Pet Sounds gradually became a bit under-rated, and Ram was really under-rated. Some people can't let go of those myths. Fortunately, others can. And last year, we saw critic after critic praise the Ram reissue, give it stellar reviews, and place it in its rightful place among great classic albums. Is Smile better than Ram? I don't know: Is chocolate ice cream better than chocolate chip? That's just a personal choice. They're both genius albums. I do think Brian Wilson deserved the Grammy -- believe it or not, I read that he's only won TWO in his life. So it was nice to see him honored. But he was awarded that Grammy as much for sentimental reasons as for the music. Ram would have deserved that Grammy, too -- not saying that Ram is better than Smile. Just that it was equally deserving.
I'm not saying that Smile didn't deserve the Grammy. I'm saying that some people don't give enough credit to RAM, say "Smile" is a masterpiece and RAM is just fine.
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Sounds like Paul's anticipating a nomination for the new album.
This year I was actually presenting at the Baftas, they?d asked me to present a film music award that night. And then coming home from that, I got a text saying ?You?ve won a Grammy.? So the car was alight with triumph. Hence the theory, you mustn?t go if you want to win. But having said that, we might go next year.
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new interview to Paul about it, I like this: "My grandkids always beat me at Rock Band. And I say, Listen, you may beat me at Rock Band, but I made the original records, so shut up." lol http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/a-grammy-winning-formula-for-paul-mccartney-dont-show-up/ the article says also "that this is your first Grammy for an album of new recordings since ?Let It Be.? " however absurd...
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21st Century Paul:
new interview to Paul about it, I like this: "My grandkids always beat me at Rock Band. And I say, Listen, you may beat me at Rock Band, but I made the original records, so shut up." lol http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/a-grammy-winning-formula-for-paul-mccartney-dont-show-up/ the article says also "that this is your first Grammy for an album of new recordings since ?Let It Be.? " however absurd...
My favorite part of that article is: "I?m talking to you now before I go into the recording studio to record new songs of mine. I love that ? I love that I still am enthusiastic, I?ve still got the energy and the desire to keep doing it."
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veggieburgher:
Sounds like Paul's anticipating a nomination for the new album.
This year I was actually presenting at the Baftas, they?d asked me to present a film music award that night. And then coming home from that, I got a text saying ?You?ve won a Grammy.? So the car was alight with triumph. Hence the theory, you mustn?t go if you want to win. But having said that, we might go next year.
That's not what it sounds like to me at all. It just sounds like he might go. :
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beatlesfanrandy:
veggieburgher:
Sounds like Paul's anticipating a nomination for the new album.
This year I was actually presenting at the Baftas, they?d asked me to present a film music award that night. And then coming home from that, I got a text saying ?You?ve won a Grammy.? So the car was alight with triumph. Hence the theory, you mustn?t go if you want to win. But having said that, we might go next year.
That's not what it sounds like to me at all. It just sounds like he might go. :
Actually my thinking was that he did not wish to discourage a nomination by stating that he plans to not attend.
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Michelley:
Bruce M.:
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
Well I agree with you on the second sentence. But you're absolutely wrong on the first. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who appreciates Smile could not also appreciate Ram. Both albums are in the same creative vein.
I appreciate RAM just fine. But I take it that you've never really listened to SMiLE before, if at all, if you truly think both albums are in the same creative vein. They are *completely* different albums with a completely different approach. With RAM, McCartney attempted to re-invent himself with a "homegrown", earthy, laid-back approach. It definitely is underrated (critics initially hated it but have warmed up to it in recent decades) and it's one of his best solo albums; but it's not exactly ground-breaking the way SMiLE was. And it doesn't quite reach the level he was on with the Beatles. SMiLE was a completely different beast. It was huge in scope; taking the production values of Pet Sounds to the next level. "Good Vibrations" (dubbed "the pocket symphony") alone is a majestic pop masterpiece in terms of production and songwriting. Hell, that song alone took more than several different studios to record it all! The album is more like a symphony; complete with several different movements.
Michelley:
And it was Pet Sounds that people said was the height of songwriting (and it should be noted that Brian Wilson didn't write any of the lyrics on either album, they were written by several lyricists).
Yes, Brian Wilson usually collaborated with others on lyrics. With Pet Sounds, he worked with Tony Asher. In Asher's own words, "The general tenor of the lyrics was often [Brian's], however the actual choice of words was usually mine. I was really just his interpreter." But seriously, who the hell cares whether or not Brian Wilson was writing his own lyrics? What, was his arranging of layers and layers of instrument and vocal parts, crafting complex melodies and his mastering of production techniques not impressive enough? Seriously, if you truly believe Wilson was somehow "slacking" because he didn't write all the lyrics on his albums, you really aren't getting the big picture here.
Michelley:
Is Smile better than Ram? I don't know: Is chocolate ice cream better than chocolate chip? That's just a personal choice. They're both genius albums. I do think Brian Wilson deserved the Grammy -- believe it or not, I read that he's only won TWO in his life. So it was nice to see him honored. But he was awarded that Grammy as much for sentimental reasons as for the music. Ram would have deserved that Grammy, too -- not saying that Ram is better than Smile. Just that it was equally deserving.
I get where you're coming from. I agree with you that RAM was deserving of more critical acclaim than it initially received. Yes, McCartney was on the receiving end from many a critic's wrath after the Beatles split; a position that he never fully rebounded from. But let's be honest here: with all due respect, I think you're simply looking at this from a personal preference perspective whereas I'm looking at it from an objective perspective. I love both the Beatles and the Beach Boys about the same. I believe both Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson are musical geniuses. So I have no beef with someone preferring RAM over SMiLE. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Where I find fault with your argument is trying to suggest that both RAM and SMiLE are somehow on equal footing in terms of scope. This is simply an unfair and downright ridiculous comparison. With RAM, McCartney was thinking "small" and scaled back (in terms of approach, not quality) whereas with SMiLE, Brian Wilson was thinking "grand" and immaculate.
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Awesoman:
But let's be honest here: with all due respect, I think you're simply looking at this from a personal preference perspective whereas I'm looking at it from an objective perspective.
I'm not sure you could be more patronizing. Yes, "your" approach is "objective."
Awesoman:
I love both the Beatles and the Beach Boys about the same. I believe both Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson are musical geniuses. So I have no beef with someone preferring RAM over SMiLE. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Where I find fault with your argument is trying to suggest that both RAM and SMiLE are somehow on equal footing in terms of scope. This is simply an unfair and downright ridiculous comparison. With RAM, McCartney was thinking "small" and scaled back (in terms of approach, not quality) whereas with SMiLE, Brian Wilson was thinking "grand" and immaculate.
Ram is not a "scaled back" album. It wasn't produced in Paul's farm in Scotland. It was produced in a New York studio -- heavily produced, layered with texture, and if it made you think it was produced up at his farm in Scotland, then that is part of its genius and its charm. By the way, "grand" statements aren't necessarily better or more important than "small" statements. I've listened to Smile plenty, thank you. And Ram. I love them both. And I'll stand by my original statement: They are both equally deserving of the Historical Album Grammy.
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jimmix:
Grammy (2013) Nominations for PAUL McCARTNEY Best Traditional Pop Vocal Album KISSES ON THE BOTTOM Best Boxed or Special Limited Edition Package RAM - Simon Earith and James Musgrave: art directors Best Historical Album RAM - Paul McCartney, Simon Gibson, Guy Massey and Steve Rooke
While these nominations are nice, I get more excited when McCartney receives nomination for a new record of original songs. I was really hoping he would win for CHAOS a few years ago because it would have given his "solo" career a bit of a boost in the eyes of the public and critics.
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Michelley:
Bruce M.:
Smile is light-years better than Ram. Really glad KOTB won though -- that was thoroughly deserved.
Well I agree with you on the second sentence. But you're absolutely wrong on the first. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone who appreciates Smile could not also appreciate Ram. Both albums are in the same creative vein. Actually it was Pet Sounds -- NOT Smile -- that broke a lot of ground production wise and musically. Brian Wilson developed his unique studio production methods by the time he made Pet Sounds, he perfected them on Pet Sounds, and just continued them on Smile. Good Vibrations, for example, is considered part of Smile but was recorded during the Pet Sounds period (with lyrics by Mike Love). And it was Pet Sounds that people said was the height of songwriting (and it should be noted that Brian Wilson didn't write any of the lyrics on either album, they were written by several lyricists). People were expecting great things in the wake of Pet Sounds. But Smile ended up being this half-finished album that was unreleased for decades and drove Brian to the brink, and, so, developed an aura and mystery about it as the "most famous unreleased album ever." Myth counts for a lot in rock and roll. Meanwhile, Ram had attracted a different "myth." It had been ripped apart by critics back then for reasons entirely unrelated to the music and entirely related to critics being pissed off at Paul for suing his bandmates. So over the years, Smile's reputation got a bit overinflated and I think Pet Sounds gradually became a bit under-rated, and Ram was really under-rated. Some people can't let go of those myths. Fortunately, others can. And last year, we saw critic after critic praise the Ram reissue, give it stellar reviews, and place it in its rightful place among great classic albums. Is Smile better than Ram? I don't know: Is chocolate ice cream better than chocolate chip? That's just a personal choice. They're both genius albums. I do think Brian Wilson deserved the Grammy -- believe it or not, I read that he's only won TWO in his life. So it was nice to see him honored. But he was awarded that Grammy as much for sentimental reasons as for the music. Ram would have deserved that Grammy, too -- not saying that Ram is better than Smile. Just that it was equally deserving.
It's an interesting comparison of albums. RAM is great no question, with the more accessible songs. SMiLE has an element of being demented, sort of like early Pink Floyd, Pipers at the Gate or something, but less English. That Syd Barrett tune Bike reminds me a little of the vibe. I don't think RAM ever gets as Beautiful as Surf's Up, nor does it go for the various harmonics that Brain does on Smile. and having Van Dyke's slanted lyrics only make the songs stronger IMO. Smile is a bit schitzo, and acid drenched, but its so beautiful and inventive. No one else was thinking along those line in 1967. Even the Beatles were behind Brian's curve at the time. The peoples were writing rock, even on Pepper. Believe it or not the effort that would have had to have gone into Smile would have been greater than Pepper even. Peppers got the more catchy and conventional (believe it or not) songs on it. Smile loses to Pepper imo, but does beat RAM. RAM for me never gets as Beautiful as Surf's Up. But Paul rocks it on Monkberry, harder than Wilson rocks it on say Hero's and Villians. But man Heros and Villians is an amazing song/production and meter. SMiLE is just less bound to happen ever again I would say in terms of the music that was made. The Beach Boys filled out their albums for years by making Smile session songs the corner stones of their subsequent albums if you actually look at it. Wile Honey, Smiley Smile, Surf's Up, a bunch of their albums where the songs with the highest musical acumen are songs from the smile sessions. I once started a thread here a long time ago, so long that it might not even exists anymore, but I posed the question whether or not the Beatles themselves ever acheived the studio heights that BW did on Good Vibrations, linking all the fantastic bits of writing. Thats a tough call for me. On Abbey Road they did probably what thought to be the seminal job of that, but BRian's is beautiful and it was 3 yrs earlier. He just couldn't make decisions on running order... a lot like Syd Barrett, he was at a point where he drove himself nuts. I remember in the same thread I said that Paul and John were lucky to have each other to write and experiment with. There's a lot more pressure and self doubt I think when an artist feels like they're on their own with their ground breaking material.