Could the new Kanye/McCartney single All Day be his best?
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crisstti:
Hendrix Ibsen:
Yeah, it's engaging, I'm not one of those who dislike political songs and records, I've read that some listeners think John & Yoko's "Sometime in New York City" is hopelessly dated, 70s way of thinking... but I just listen to the themes and record for what it is, "The Luck of the Irish" has a beautiful melody... But anyway, the thing with me and the n word is that I feel somewhat like an outsider and yet it's Paul McCartney, I feel a need to express opinions about his recordings, but it's also a bit touchy and I don't want to step on someone's toes.
They clearly didn't particularly care about stepping on anyone's toes when they made the song, so why should you. Isn't everyone worrying too much about the lyrics?. What's the big deal?, it's the same thing as gay people calling each other "f*ggot". Maybe it isn't a great idea, but I don't see the big deal either. Whether any word is horrible or not has to do, as always, with the intent.
It is true in both groups you'd mentioned. However, it is possible for one to use either term with an subconsciously self-loathing motivation, too, though.
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audi:
How did he address it?
Someone elsewhere said he apologized, but I haven't found the quote(s). Someone in a different forum one of the last times this came up suggested that he didn't apologize so much as backtrack when confronted, but I don't know for sure. But I can link to a couple of articles about the song, as it comes up every once in a while on Beatle forums since the subject came up during a protest in 2011. The Ms. article refers to some of the reaction at the time of the song's release: http://msmagazine.com/blog/2011/10/06/woman-is-the-n-of-the-world/ http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/05/which-women-are-what-now-slutwalk-nyc-and-failures-in-solidarity/ parlance
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Can't say I worry about stepping on anyone's toes, to be honest, if it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't have paid this song much attention, because it's hip hop and a Kanye West song and performance. McCartney is reportedly on it, but... with or without this word, it's just another (of many...) McCartney guest appearances that doesn't stand out, if it wasn't for the....
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Meanwhile, Lindsay Lohan's gotten in trouble for quoting the song: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/a37639/lindsay-lohan-n-word-controversy/?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1440_155898108 parlance
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parlance:
Meanwhile, Lindsay Lohan's gotten in trouble for quoting the song: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/a37639/lindsay-lohan-n-word-controversy/?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1440_155898108 parlance
This is ridiculous. Why is it allowed for anyone then?
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I still haven't heard this with the whistling, is there a link?
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oobu24:
parlance:
Meanwhile, Lindsay Lohan's gotten in trouble for quoting the song: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/a37639/lindsay-lohan-n-word-controversy/?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1440_155898108 parlance
This is ridiculous. Why is it allowed for anyone then?
There've been many comments throughout this thread on how it shouldn't be said by anyone at all. paralnce
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audi:
It is true in both groups you'd mentioned. However, it is possible for one to use either term with an subconsciously self-loathing motivation, too, though.
It is possible, but they say it's about taking power away from the word, so to speak, and I think it makes sense, whether it's the best idea or not. Anyway, it's not Paul's place really to judge whether Kayne might be subconsciously self-loathing. BTW, the Lohan story is indeed ridiculous.
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crisstti:
Anyway, it's not Paul's place really to judge whether Kayne might be subconsciously self-loathing.
I don't think it's his place either. That doesn't mean he had to participate.
BTW, the Lohan story is indeed ridiculous.
It is ridiculous that she thought assumed a casual access to the word in this day and age. parlance
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parlance:
Sure, the gesture was well-meaning, but it wasn't thought through, and he hurt people in the process. John got flack from Black women at the time who felt - rightly so - they were being erased in the equation. Intent doesn't matter when you've caused offense. Causing offense doesn't mean you're a bad or evil person, but it does mean you should listen to the people who tell you they're offended, understand and apologize, if you are in fact interested in being a genuine ally rather than provoking for publicity's sake. That's the mature way to go about engaging in a complex subject.
It definitely does matter. It's not all that matters, but it's a pretty big part of it. You should listen, but you don't have to agree. Not to mention, some people will be offended by anything. Take Muslims being offended by any portrayal of Muhammad for example.
Yes, seriously. I do have problems with Paul taking part in All Day as a white man. He didn't have to say the word, but his presence constitutes a silent acquiescence. parlance
A silent acquiescence to Kayne's decision to use it, indeed. He's not obliged to judge him.
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parlance:
crisstti:
Anyway, it's not Paul's place really to judge whether Kayne might be subconsciously self-loathing.
I don't think it's his place either. That doesn't mean he had to participate.
BTW, the Lohan story is indeed ridiculous.
It is ridiculous that she thought assumed a casual access to the word in this day and age. parlance
If you want to criticise anyone over it, it should be rappers like Kayne. It's not simply a casual use though, the intent goes beyond that, whether one thinks it's a good idea or not. If Paul refrained to participare because of Kayne's use of the word, then he would be judging.
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Hip Hop culture influences every young person, it is not just for one group. The problem is, young people don't understand the subtleties of "using a word to take power from it." I have seen and heard young white folks call each other the "n" word. Not going to judge but is that what the goal is?
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RMartinez:
Hip Hop culture influences every young person, it is not just for one group. The problem is, young people don't understand the subtleties of "using a word to take power from it." I have seen and heard young white folks call each other the "n" word. Not going to judge but is that what the goal is?
Maybe it is, since it shows it goes losing its past meaning. I'm not sure overall hip hop culture has a great influence on people anyway.
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crisstti:
If you want to criticise anyone over it, it should be rappers like Kayne. It's not simply a casual use though, the intent goes beyond that, whether one thinks it's a good idea or not.
My criticism goes across the board, as others in this thread have stated.
If Paul refrained to participare because of Kayne's use of the word, then he would be judging.
No, I don't agree that's the logical conclusion. If he refused to participate, it might just mean he's uncomfortable with putting out music that's associated with the word. parlance
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crisstti:
I'm not sure overall hip hop culture has a great influence on people anyway.
It may not have had an obvious impact on you or your immediate circle, but it's had a huge impact around the world. A 2 second search on Google goes immediately to this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop#Effects At any rate, it's saddening and disturbing that people with little awareness of the history of the word use it casually. It's not just a minor slur that a few people get butthurt over. It's a word with a violent and deadly history. There might have been a moment when reclaiming the word had some value, but that lost its power decades ago. parlance
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parlance:
crisstti:
I'm not sure overall hip hop culture has a great influence on people anyway.
It may not have had an obvious impact on you or your immediate circle, but it's had a huge impact around the world. A 2 second search on Google goes immediately to this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop#Effects At any rate, it's saddening and disturbing that people with little awareness of the history of the word use it casually. It's not just a minor slur that a few people get butthurt over. It's a word with a violent and deadly history. There might have been a moment when reclaiming the word had some value, but that lost its power decades ago. parlance
But then you get people like Rush Limbaugh claiming now that whites who use that word to discriminate against blacks (as in the fraternity guys on that bus) probably just heard black rappers use it and thought it was okay. That is certainly too far, right? Whites get a free pass to use the n-word because black people said it, making blacks responsible for racist chants and discrimination against blacks? As you've said, that discrimination goes back way, way, way before rap ever existed! I do have to wonder if "All Day" was the song Limbaugh was thinking of when he said this.
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The other night on ET I heard a blurb about the new show Empire & how they WANT to use the word. -from the article: "I?m mad that we don?t say n?- in the show,? he admits. ?Why is TV showing something different from the reality of the world? Why is there a thing called censorship that stop people from hearing everyday talk? We use n?-every day. It?s become part of a conversation?why aren?t we using it in the show?? http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2015/02/terrence-howard-empire-n-word#!
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favoritething:
parlance:
crisstti:
I'm not sure overall hip hop culture has a great influence on people anyway.
It may not have had an obvious impact on you or your immediate circle, but it's had a huge impact around the world. A 2 second search on Google goes immediately to this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop#Effects At any rate, it's saddening and disturbing that people with little awareness of the history of the word use it casually. It's not just a minor slur that a few people get butthurt over. It's a word with a violent and deadly history. There might have been a moment when reclaiming the word had some value, but that lost its power decades ago. parlance
But then you get people like Rush Limbaugh claiming now that whites who use that word to discriminate against blacks (as in the fraternity guys on that bus) probably just heard black rappers use it and thought it was okay. That is certainly too far, right? Whites get a free pass to use the n-word because black people said it, making blacks responsible for racist chants and discrimination against blacks? As you've said, that discrimination goes back way, way, way before rap ever existed! I do have to wonder if "All Day" was the song Limbaugh was thinking of when he said this.
"But then you get people like Rush Limbaugh claiming now that whites who use that word to discriminate against blacks (as in the fraternity guys on that bus) probably just heard black rappers use it and thought it was okay" See below for what Limbaugh actually said. " Simply said on the program yesterday that if Kanye West sang those very lyrics at the Grammys, he'd get a standing O, probably win awards, and that lyrics like that in rap music have created celebrities, millionaire celebrities and near royalty out of the artists that perform them. Now, you shook your head at some point, "No, I don't think --" And then I said, "Well, maybe, okay, but you can't deny," I said, "that people who sing these lyrics are treated like royalty and win awards left and right." " Let me clarify something about the frat boys. They were not actually singing a rap song. They were using words that are omnipresent in rap music, but they were not mimicking a rap song. The point is that if you travel anywhere in America and you hear music, you can't miss these words anymore on the radio now or however people are streaming musical content. If you can hear what they're listening to, you can't miss it. You can't miss the N-word. You can't miss the b-i-itch word. You can't miss "ho." You can't miss all these vile lyrics. It's everywhere. And I think people are fed up with it."
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favoritething:
Whites get a free pass to use the n-word because black people said it, making blacks responsible for racist chants and discrimination against blacks? As you've said, that discrimination goes back way, way, way before rap ever existed!
Yes thank you, it's just another way to justify using it. Also, let's not forget that the frat boys' song referred to lynching, so, no, they didn't get that from a modern day rap song. And it all begs the question... why would you want to use the word so badly? parlance
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yankeefan7:
favoritething:
parlance:
crisstti:
I'm not sure overall hip hop culture has a great influence on people anyway.
It may not have had an obvious impact on you or your immediate circle, but it's had a huge impact around the world. A 2 second search on Google goes immediately to this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop#Effects At any rate, it's saddening and disturbing that people with little awareness of the history of the word use it casually. It's not just a minor slur that a few people get butthurt over. It's a word with a violent and deadly history. There might have been a moment when reclaiming the word had some value, but that lost its power decades ago. parlance
But then you get people like Rush Limbaugh claiming now that whites who use that word to discriminate against blacks (as in the fraternity guys on that bus) probably just heard black rappers use it and thought it was okay. That is certainly too far, right? Whites get a free pass to use the n-word because black people said it, making blacks responsible for racist chants and discrimination against blacks? As you've said, that discrimination goes back way, way, way before rap ever existed! I do have to wonder if "All Day" was the song Limbaugh was thinking of when he said this.
"But then you get people like Rush Limbaugh claiming now that whites who use that word to discriminate against blacks (as in the fraternity guys on that bus) probably just heard black rappers use it and thought it was okay" See below for what Limbaugh actually said. " Simply said on the program yesterday that if Kanye West sang those very lyrics at the Grammys, he'd get a standing O, probably win awards, and that lyrics like that in rap music have created celebrities, millionaire celebrities and near royalty out of the artists that perform them. Now, you shook your head at some point, "No, I don't think --" And then I said, "Well, maybe, okay, but you can't deny," I said, "that people who sing these lyrics are treated like royalty and win awards left and right." " Let me clarify something about the frat boys. They were not actually singing a rap song. They were using words that are omnipresent in rap music, but they were not mimicking a rap song. The point is that if you travel anywhere in America and you hear music, you can't miss these words anymore on the radio now or however people are streaming musical content. If you can hear what they're listening to, you can't miss it. You can't miss the N-word. You can't miss the b-i-itch word. You can't miss "ho." You can't miss all these vile lyrics. It's everywhere. And I think people are fed up with it."
The point is that those frat boys were not *just* using the n-word, they were using it to say loud and clear that blacks are not welcome in their fraternity. That's the really despicable part of it. Rush doesn't seem to care about that aspect; he's more concerned that rappers use the n-word. Any excuse to blame them instead of the frat boys. If one of those white frat boys were caught on video saying to another white frat boy, "What's up, my n***a?", that would definitely be inappropriate, but it's a whole other level when he says, "We'll never let a n****r in our fraternity." How are rappers responsible for that mentality? And Rush makes it sound like rappers are rich and famous BECAUSE they use the n-word, which is completely ludicrous.